Biz Bestie Chat with Amber Lyda

One minute we’re talking all things business, the next thing you know I’m spilling secrets on what’s coming next.

I revealed a little more than I thought I would about the changes happening in my business on the latest episode of Empathy Rising.

I guess that’s what happens when two business besties start chatting.

We dive into so much more and in one episode basically cover how our businesses have evolved over the last quarter and this past year.

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Full Show Notes (Transcript)…

Marissa Lawton: I think you have to give me permission. Did it pop up with anything? Yeah, isn't that so weird? Does yours do that? 

Amber Lyda: All the time coming up with something new. 

ML: Yeah. Mine started on Monday. And so the first time I did it scared the crap out of me because it was my computer talking to me. 

Anyway, hey risers, this is what you get when you get me and Amber. We were just talking about how I just hit record on the computer, and it started talking to us and saying "recording in progress". So here we are in the middle of quarter two, and we are having another one of our biz bestie chats. We did this in quarter one kind of on a whim, and it was on that episode that we decided we wanted to do this more often. 

So if you haven't listened to our first biz bestie chat it was sometime in... April? February? March? Sometime in quarter one. April will be quarter two. So not then... probably February. Let's just say you're going to have to scroll and look.

But it might be interesting if you didn't listen to that one just to see what we were talking about then in the beginning of the year, now that we're pretty much in the middle of the year, what's changed, what stayed the same, all of that kind of stuff. 

But before we do that, Amber, just in case there's anybody who's new to my audience who might've come in recently that doesn't know us or doesn't know you, can you introduce yourself? Tell us what you do for the therapist's community and a little bit about your programs and your offers. 

AL: Sure. My name's Amber Lyda, I'm a clinical psychologist and I started an online therapy practice so that I could leave community agency life behind and live more of my life outside of my work. And I just fell into teaching other people how to do it as well. And that turned into a free Facebook group, which turned into some one-on-one coaching, which turned into a guided course. 

And so now I have a course called Step-by-Step, where I help people to create a full and fulfilling online therapy practice. We say it's successful in soul sustaining. We put building a life right at the center and then building a business that supports that. 

And for our folks who don't need that level of care but they need a more evolved level of care, I also have a mentorship membership program called Momentum. And that's for people who already have a full or full-ish practice, and they're just looking to work fewer hours to make more money and to spend more time doing the stuff they love outside of work. 

ML: Yeah. And I think that's where you and I overlapped so much is it's lifestyle first business second, where whether that business is your private practice, or if it is your private practice, plus with a side hustle or something like that, always having your lifestyle, your value system, your time management centered around the people and things that matter to you first and then your income second is something that we have in common.

AL: It's why we're business besties. 

ML: And I can't even remember what we talked about in quarter one on our last one. So I was going to be like, so what do you think based on last episode versus this episode, but I don't even know if you remember necessarily.

AL: What I do remember was talking about having to change messaging because we had talked about my business having a 200 K launch when the pandemic hit in March, and then having a 50 K launch, the one after that. And prior to that, I had been averaging a 100 K and steadily and we were identifying different things that could have contributed to that including the audience being maxed out, topped out, they'd already signed up, but my messaging needed to shift big time. 

That was a really big piece of this next launch. And then the other piece was that the Facebook algorithm was no longer favoring my voice or my content. And that was really affecting how many people I could get my message in front of, even if I was messaging it correctly at that point. 

ML: Ooh. That's really interesting. Okay. So how do you think that you have fully navigated that message change? Are you still in the middle of it? 

AL: I think we nailed the messaging this time. I think we nailed it. I did a lot of polls in the Facebook group for it was time. And ended up literally copying and pasting things that people said into a Google doc. And I was like that will be our copy, right there. And that's exactly, the words were just like, tug at your heart kind of language. So I think we got our copy and our messaging. 

ML: I remember reading one of your emails probably when you were doing some of this stuff. And I wrote you back and I was like, this was amazing copy - this was so good. 

AL: I was pretty excited to get that email. I was like, oh yeah. 

ML: And so now that you're messaging... tell us a little bit, what was the big shift? So it was more like I'm taking a guess here, but I'm assuming it was like, get set up. But then the pandemic made everybody get set up like it was online or nothing. And so there were a lot of people who were set up. So it wasn't so much about that. Maybe about maintaining or what did you really switch to? 

AL: So originally I used to have to explain to people that online therapy was even a possibility. That was all my prelaunch content. And then the number one thing holding them back was fear of messing up.

So what I was really selling was listen, I can help you understand how to know the ethics and the legal issues and all the security you're going to be fine. Now, because of the pandemic, everybody knows how to throw it together. They trust whether they actually know. They trust that they can do it legally, ethically, all of that stuff.

And so now they're like, oh, I want to stay online. How do I get clients? I make sure I fill in all of the holes that maybe I missed when I threw it together? How do I make sure that I can get clients and that this is sustainable, even if insurance starts to change and won't continue to reimburse?

So even though all of that stuff I covered in the course from the very beginning, the message I just had to week so that I was letting them know, hey, this is stuff that we're covering. We've been covering this stuff. I just wasn't highlighting it.

ML: Well and I think that's fascinating because a lot of people at that point would have burned things to the ground. They would have said, oh, my business is broken. And my business is broken. My program is useless. Now I have to start from scratch and start over. 

And you were able to really realize that's not what's happening here. The value... the information is still helpful, valuable, necessary, needed. I just need to talk about the information in a different way. To make sure that value is still communicated in a language that people now a year later, which feels like a decade later can hear and still appreciate it. 

AL: Yeah. And you even, I forget what you said last time, but it was really helpful about switching something in, oh, here's what it was. You said that your audience evolved and so your product has to evolve.

And so right now, the way that the product is evolving is now I have three groups coming through. They're different tracks. There's like brand newbies versus I've been doing this for a while. I just want to dot my I's and cross my T's. 

So without changing anything in the course, and just sending an email out to those segments saying, this is the order I'd go through if I were you. And each segment has a different order. It was like ah-ha like, yeah, they're evolving. Sure, I'm going to be adding in more content to keep up with the evolution. But a lot of the content's already there, I'm just going to have them approach it differently. 

ML: And I love, because this is, what now, your fifth or sixth round of it? Maybe even more than that, because you've done it twice right now. And so it's your program backwards and forwards, the content that's in there and not only does your program evolve, but you as the facilitator of that program evolves. 

So you're able to, you're a better guide than you were in round six and you were around three, then you were we're in round one, certainly. So you're able to better guide them to what they need at that moment. 

AL: You seem to be doing that in your program too, like adjusting to the evolution of your audience with making it a longer program, with moving from just covering (not just) but covering all of the early stages to covering launch, maybe even post-launch. What are you doing in your life side of things?

ML: Yeah. So I think I really resonate when you said that there's the people who were worried about getting it right, and then there's the people who trust that they see enough other therapists adding online income streams, they see another enough other therapist coaching or whatever. And so they're like, okay there's a way to do this.

And I'll figure that out. And I now speak to those people separately. I speak to... I used to lump ethics and lump that stuff in together, and now I've created specific things that just address that. And then if people have a question about ethics or like separate business first, keeping it under one business, I send them to one specific place where I say I've covered this. Because for some people it's a huge barrier, but for others, it's just a little speed bump.

AL: Yes. 

ML: And the way that I present it to the different audiences makes a difference. The other thing that I am finding - I'm curious if you find this in your audience as well - is there's a difference between the clinicians who are money motivated and the clinicians who are impact motivated. And I need to talk to them differently as well because I am hands down money motivated.

About me: like Josh retired from the army four years now. And my biggest utmost goal is to buy our house in cash. We're actually going to build, but to do that process in cash so that we are 40 and have no mortgage. Like that to me is a home that we own out, that we can pass to our kids.

It's generational wealth. It's a home that even in 10 years we could sell and not have a carry-over debt that we have or anything like that. So that really is a huge goal to me. And it's tied to money. It's a money-motivated goal. 

However, I recognize that there are other clinicians, especially in my audience, that are "money's great. Cool. Yeah, bring me a couple hundred extra bucks a month", but they are much more message and impact motivated. They know that they have something that if just more people heard it, more people could benefit. 

They're not out to change the world. They don't, it's not ego-driven for them either. It's really not. It's impact-driven. And so that has changed the way that I talk to certain people as well. What I feel, what I have noticed. And this is a guess, this is something I'm observing and testing, is that people who are newer and people who are newer to the concept of online income are more money motivated or more drawn to, oh, I can make money without being face-to-face with somebody. Or I can get off the time for money hamster wheel, which is messaging that I'm playing around with.

Once they've realized what's possible, once they're over the gap okay, I can cut my caseload in half. I can replace or exceed what I was making before with my online income stream. Once the money piece falls into place, then it becomes more about impact. So money is the door opener, and then impact is what I've seen carry people sustainably like to build that sustainable business.

AL: That's interesting. I think for my people, it starts with time. Time is the number one thing that they're looking for, they're naturally service driven, but what they're doing service already. What they're looking for is how the heck can I get some more time in my life or whatever. And then ultimately what that means is they have to make more money per hour, or they have to leverage things so that they're not working for money per hour. Those are only answers to get to the issue of time. 

ML: Yeah. Yeah, I agree because what our industry has set us up for is dollars for hours, exchanging time for money. And so there are a few things that we can do with that. We can raise our rates, and then that can maybe help us drop one or two clients. But for those who want to significantly maybe cut their caseload in half, that's when we have to think about income from another source. 

Or maybe you're at $400 an hour, which I think is sustainable and very few places in the country for therapy today. Hopefully that starts to change and the market changes. Ultimately we've either got to go to other revenue streams or something like them. 

AL: Yeah. I have multiple layers of questions for you around now, but just in case the listeners are like, whoa, that's too high level. Let me start here. 

ML: Yeah, for sure. 

AL: So we've talked a lot about, you have a one-to-one service and there is a cap where you're just not going to be able to get the revenue above that cap per quarter. Now it's almost always higher than any therapist thinks it's going to be, they see 200 and they're like, no way.

Absolutely. Yes way to 25. Yes way it's possible. You got to get licensed in the right places. You got to target your market well, but totally possible. 400, 500. That's starting to get it. Like that's getting to be the tail end of the bell curve. That's going to be much harder to get, but at some point, we reach a level that is impossible to get per hour for therapy. Unless you want to work with like Justin Bieber, and I still don't think he's paying two grand an hour. Maybe for his float tank, but not for his therapist. 

Then we start thinking about scaling, and the first way that therapists usually think about scaling is there they're going to have a group practice or they're going to build a course or membership or something like that.

So my question for you, Marissa, is if you're wanting to scale, so I'm talking about making millions, a million or more every year as a therapist in a scalable business, what kind of models stick out for you? Totally going to put you on the spot. So you're working under 20 hours a week. 

ML: Okay, you want to, as a therapist, make that money or you're a clinician?

AL: Yeah. You have therapist training, but you're not going to be doing therapy. You can be doing whatever.

ML: Okay, the first thing that stands out to me: it has to be evergreen and it has to be recurring revenue. The number one thing we think about with that is membership site. However, there's something that's new in the marketplace.

It's about 12 months old now where people are taking group programs, like what I run in Side Hustle and turning those evergreen. Meaning that people can join them all the time. There are a few key reasons why I haven't done this with Side Hustle yet. Or I don't think I'm going to ever. I have another plan because we can talk about what's happening between quarter one and quarter two for me, revenue-wise in just a minute and it'll all make sense. 

But they're trying, this business model is trying to blend high touch and evergreen at the same time. So these programs are often still very premium-priced, 5,000, 10,000 or more in the marketplace for usually about a 12-month program. 

So they go longer. But somebody can join in January. Somebody can join in February, somebody can join in March. So they are getting rid of the cohort style. 

AL: Interesting. Okay, wait, little question there. 

ML: Yeah? 

AL: Is the way that they're selling this, like it's just on their website? Are they doing live webinars to sell? Is it an SLO kind of offer?

ML: There's definitely an application process, which I, I have an application for Side Hustle, but I have an application for Side Hustle because I am doing a cohort model. I want to curate that group of people and make sure that I don't have people in there who are crazy different personalities.

Cause that's happened to me in different rounds where I've had a few personalities that were outliers. Not that they were like bad people, but they were an outlier for the group, the tone of the group. And so that's something that is important to me. That's one of the reasons I want to stay cohort style.

The other thing that happens in these models is people hire coaches under them and they're teaching their "intellectual property" to other people and trusting that coach can coach the way that they coach, which is a lot of coaches. Something similar to this is like a Daring Way-type model where Bernay brown or Sue Johnson and stuff like that.

Like they developed this curriculum and they are training people to be able to carry out that curriculum to a standard. So that's the idea, but it's just a closed group. Like it's not like a national certification that people can get or international certification, it's just within their program. But they have coaches so that basically they don't have to work anymore.

ML: This is weird to me in my brain because if you're joining somebody's high touch group program, nine times out of the ten you're joining the work with them. 

AL: Yes. 

ML: You really are. And so it can be disappointing for some people to join a program like that, to pay $10,000 and then to realize they're only actually going to see the facilitator or hosted that program maybe once a month. And instead, they're working with Jane and Bob and all these other people that person is hired. 

I'm not questioning the efficacy of those programs. I think those programs can still get great results. I really do. It's just sometimes in the messaging, in the communication, there's a disconnect because there's a face that is selling the program, and everybody wants to work with that face, but that face isn't actually there.

AL: Yes. Yep. And the brand is you, but the product you're delivering is... 

ML: Very little of you. It's you light. 

AL: Yeah. 

ML: And a lot of people maybe enroll in that, not knowing that. So I just, I don't think they're bad programs. I just want to make sure that they are sold with very clear transparency that you're only going to actually talk to me a couple of times. 

You're still going to get my intellectual property. You're still going to be trained by people who I have trained. However, you're not really going to work with me very much. 

AL: And that model for me, introduces so much complexity, first of all. And it introduces so many expenses because now you're paying for those coaches, you're paying with your time to train them. And okay, they hit a million, 5 million, 10 million, whatever. How much of that ends up being, take home, pay?

ML: A lot less than you think because this is, that's exactly what I'm experiencing right now in 2021 is it's not a cash flow problem, but it's definitely like my profit margins have changed because Side Hustle has gotten longer.

It's a nine-month program right now. And I brought on staff, but they are not staff that teach what I teach. I am still with those students five hours a week plus any Voxer time. So it's you're still with me 10 hours a week. Not once a month. So I'm still very much in that program. However, I have brought on a copywriter and a designer to build custom, not custom, to build websites for you.

Everybody gets the same website, but there is a designer who has built it for you. It's professionally designed. Same with the copy. There are copy templates. Everybody uses the same template. However, it has been professionally written by a copywriter. 

AL: We're all using the same template when it comes down to it. We're all using the exact same template. 

ML: And I pay them well. I pay them for that and I pay them well, it's important to me to pay them well. And my students would say the products that they get back from Kristen and Shayna, like the feedback and that, they're blown away. The first time they get a video back critiquing their designer, their copy, they're like, holy shit this is not what I was expecting. 

They get a 20-30 minute video on their sales page and they're like, whoa. So I'm paying for high quality, and I'm very proud of the program that I'm delivering. And I'm also very much a part of the program where I'm delivering, however, I'm paying and I'm paying for all of their websites.

Like you get a free website inside of Side Hustle. And so that's the hosting on Squarespace. That's all of that stuff. So this all counts. As I'm getting into accounting terms here. This all counts as cost of goods sold. It is all money that I will recoup all my taxes. However, it is not cash flow that goes into my bank account.

So for people who've been listening to the podcast for a while, just a year ago, I've recorded an episode - it might've been two years ago now - how I run my business for $130 a month. Which is literally when I was doing everything myself. So the five hours of calls, the five hours of voxers and all the website critiques and all the copy critiques, it was actually like 40 plus hours a week for my Side Hustle students alone, let alone my marketing time, let alone all of that stuff.

I made "a shit ton" more money, even though my launches gross a higher amount, you're saying you average a hundred K per launch and stuff like that. I average about a hundred and this time I opened Side Hustle in January and it will gross me $160,000 for the year of 2021.

However, I'm paying Kristin and I'm paying Shana and I'm paying Squarespace and I'm paying all this stuff. So I'm actually only making, I'm making... I am bringing home less from Side Hustle. Then I did in 2020. 

AL: Yep. 

ML: Even though I made more from it in 2021, if that makes sense. So what I like about that evergreen group program model is it's recurring revenue. There's no cap because it's not a cohort. And as the facilitator of that group program, you do work less because you have other people who are doing that work for you and you still get to charge premium prices. So it's possible to make almost $200,000 with 30 sales or whatever. However, we've talked about the cons of it, which is lower profit margin.

Sometimes your students can be disappointed if they're not getting access to you that they thought they were going to get and stuff like that. So if we juxtapose that with a membership site, which like let's run with a 50 buck membership site, $50 a month membership site, you can run that by yourself.

What you have to have is strict boundaries. And I would eventually probably hire somebody to manage the community for you, because I do feel like that's the piece that can get out of control, but you have one employee and it can be a five hour a week employee who maybe grows into a 20 hour a week employee as your revenue grows from the membership side.

Here's the biggest difference. Where you need 30 sales to make $200,000 for the year, you need a thousand sales. I'm just giving random numbers, but you need many more members to hit that same revenue. So the way that I described this as like a pie chart. Because everybody talks about, oh, I want passive income where I don't have any time or where I'm not investing time in the business.

The time happens regardless. It either happens face to face with the students or members or whoever's in your program, or it happens in the behind the scenes marketing and logistics of the program. You give time regardless. It just matters how you want that time to be. If you're interested more in the face time, you can charge higher, which means you need to do less marketing.

I know it's counterintuitive to do less marketing for a higher price program, but it's the truth. Versus if you want less face time, you then have to put in more marketing time because less face time means less revenue, which means you need to sell to more people, which means you need to market more. So they're two sides to the same coin, but those are the offers that are all ultimately scalable.

Now a course is scalable too. It is. And it's going to fall right in the middle. Let's say it's a price at $2,000 course. And then you have medium marketing needs and medium traffic needs because it's a higher price than a membership site. The issue with a course is it's not recurring revenue.

So you get that one, $2,000 sale and that's it. You got to go out and get another $2,000 sale, another $2,000 sale. Whereas in both of the other models that we've talked about, they are paying you... it might be only a year on this group program, but it's, $600 a month for 12 months. So that revenue is recurring.

Whereas in the membership site, they're usually in perpetuity, but you can count on that money for about the same time. About a year. Most members in a membership site are retained for about a year before there's turnover. But it's 50 bucks a month, a year for 12 months. 

AL: I really love how Amy Porterfield and Stu McLaren talk about adding a high priced membership on the back end of a course. And that's a model that I really like. So with Step-by-Step I added - and thank goodness I did - a level-up version. So it's a step-by-step course, plus if you want to add this level of version, you're going to get small group coaching through the experience.

Not only is that cool for the students because they're going to get way better outcomes and I'm like getting to see the progress so it's super reinforcing for me, but it also primes them to join Momentum afterwards because they're more likely to be at a place in their business where they're full or full-ish and ready to hop in there.

And the other cool piece is that it's offered to my graduates every single time they go through. So if they see you know, life happens and people don't always get to put the stuff they're learning into practice. Year two they're in there and they're like, ah, I need the accountability, I want the small group coaching they can add that on top. 

ML: That's cool. 

AL: It gave me much more room this launch to sell fewer products. Thank goodness, because they're just not selling the way that they were before because of Facebook. So this ended up meaning I could sell fewer, but get the same or similar income and it can be a ladder into my recurring revenue stream through Momentum, which is nice.

The downside is it's more work hours for me. So it's keeping my income the same as it was before but a little bit less, and I'm having to work more hours. So as an entrepreneur, it feels like you're always bob and weaving around whatever's happening in the marketplace at any given time.

ML: And I think that's true of any business. If you're like a roofer, right? There's going to be one year that there's a hailstorm. And then all of a sudden you can't meet demand because you've run with this like crew of, let's say five roofers. And then all of a sudden there's so many houses and then you hire and you're like, oh, who can be a roofer for me?

I'll train you real fast. Or who has previous experience? And you hire to meet that demand, then all of a sudden, like no one needs a new roof anymore. So then you got to fire people and you might raise the price of your roofing. You might, you have different tile or shingles, whatever you, wherever you live in the Southwest, we have tile on our houses.

But like shingles. And so you're going to have different categories or levels of product. This is the fancy one. This is the regular one. Do you want a solar panel? All of this stuff. So you're going to have add-ons and tweaks, and that's being a business owner. This is a little soapbox, but if you don't want to pay attention to the marketplace, and if you just want to have something that you do, and it just always works and always sells, then you are going to be at the mercy of the market.

And that might mean that you could have a banner year. And then that might mean that you have a bust of a year and that could be totally okay with you. And that's fine. I actually know a few people who run businesses like that, and they're just like whatever happens. 

That's not me. And so if I can tell, okay, I am getting some indicators here in my business that our sales are slowing down then I am going to pivot or I'm going to introduce a new offer. I am going to do something so that my revenue stays or exceeds what I want it to be. Now, that can also have the double-edged sword because then you're sometimes working harder than you want to. 

So that's why I think lifestyle, which is what we started this with, has to be at the crux of this. I do, it makes me think of the phrase "hustle and flow", which is totally not normally business-related. However, there are times of hustle, and these can be two weeks sprints or they can be whatever. But unless you want to be that person who is more go with the flow in and more at the whim of the market, being able to anticipate these and even better having indicators set up in your business too, that will like the dominoes that I mentioned on this show a lot.

If you've got five dominoes that fall and your sixth domino doesn't fall, can you interject right there? And can you recognize there's a pattern coming or recognize that there's something that's not working or that's looking off compared to last year or something like that? And then you can make adjustments as needed.

At that point, rather than waiting till you're 15 dominoes down the road or down the line and things haven't fallen into place. 

AL: Yep. This is exactly why I took Side Hustle. So even though I had a successful launch, I knew like this could be a one and done kind of success. And once I learned the system that is replicable for me over and over again, and learn how to use the same system, but what kind of tweak it to do this or pivot with the system to do that because otherwise, it is, you really are at the mercy of whatever is going on. 

ML: Yeah. And talking about kind of this backend offer that you were talking about. That's really what I envision is because Side Hustle is the container in which you learn how things work, you learn the rules so well that when you come into the mastermind, that's only started talking about bending the rules.

That's what we started talking about okay, what if you did this, and what if you did this. But you have to have the foundation in place from which to be able to adjust. You have to know, are things measurable, are things working? What are your indicators? Your KPIs is what they're called in business - key performance indicators. Are they telling you what you need to be told? 

Now let's play around. Now let's learn how to break the rules or bend the rules. And I think that on call one, or on our quarter one chat, I talked about how I had postponed the mastermind or how I had stopped running the mastermind. And that made my revenue take a hit, but it was what I needed for my mental health and my... I burned myself out the quarter four of last year.

And then I needed to take quarter one of this year and just do the bare bones of my business, which is Side Hustle. And then now I'm already brainstorming how to bring the mastermind back after this round of Side Hustle with better boundaries and in a way that's more fun. And in a way that's more enjoyable for me and for the participants.

And so I am excited to bring it back and I know that 2022 will be a higher revenue year than 2021 is turning out to be, but I'm okay with that because it was intentional. It was intentional. And then when I recognized the cash flow and how much more, even though I was grossing and "making more money", I was taking less home.

I was like, oh, and I felt it. I felt it in my purse strings. I was like, Ooh, okay. Like we went to the Renaissance festival. And I was watching what we spent and I hadn't done that in a year and a half. 

AL: Yeah. 

ML: And I didn't like the way that it fell. Not that we spend with abandon. And I think my mom would call my kids spoiled, but I wouldn't call my kids, but I don't like... growing up with a single mom, you used to check the price tag. Like you'd find a shirt you really liked in the store, and before we even picked it up off the rack, you would check the price tag just to be sure if you could even pick it up off the rack. And I felt like in 2018, 2019, and even, and especially 2020 - I actually made the most money in 2020 that I have made in my business, I didn't have to check the price tag. And all of a sudden in 2021, I found myself checking down price tags, again. Going back to old patterns and old habits. And I don't want to be that way. And so it's not always about how much money your business is making, but it's about how much are you taking home?

AL: Yes. 

ML: Wrapping this all kind of together, these programs that are scalable. Nothing is doable by yourself. Even a membership site, you're eventually probably going to want a community manager. You're probably gonna want someone to help you. And then we've got to look at scale. How much do you have to pay people to get to that next level of revenue?

And if you've got to pay two people to get you from 250,000 a year to $400,000 a year, but when you're at $400,000, you're not taking any more home because that you're making, you're paying the people and paying taxes and all of the stuff. Do you even want to scale? 

AL: Exactly. Yes, exactly. There's also this piece of, so let's say that you hit the space after that. Let's say that you hit up 800 or a million, and now you're paying your team and you're still taking more home than you were before. The level of complexity of the business, a hundred percent for moving, that takes up a lot of emotional space. I feel like - we just moved to Kartra a software program this time.

We're like, it's an amazing piece of software, but you know that right now I don't understand that software well enough, that if Shantelle fell off the face of the earth, I would be screwed. Because I don't understand how to work it. I would really be up several nights learning how to work it. And it would be unpleasant. 

ML: Yep. 

AL: That's a mental load that I don't know if I want to carry. I think that I have to be close enough to my business. I don't think I'm going to be the sort of person that can create a business and then be totally hands-off. I don't think that's in my personality. I want to know how things work.

I want to be able to get immediate feedback on what our sales numbers are. I don't want to have to wait for somebody to update an Excel spreadsheet. I want to be able to see it. I want to see if there's some customer service issues. I don't need to see them all, but I want to be able to see some of them to see if there's some things coming up that I might have a workaround for.

It's just helping me to start to realize there's going to be a cap on what I want to scale to because I'm unwilling to live the life that would be required of me to get at that level of income. I don't want to hold the mental space for all of that complexity. 

ML: Yeah. And here's - just to play devil's advocate because I agree with you 100% - but what other people might say, because this is what I hear on podcasts that tell me I'm supposed to have a big business, even though I don't necessarily want them is they would say, is that your anxiety and your money mindset getting in the way?

And I think sometimes I can identify with that as well, because this house that we're going to buy in building cash, I'll look at floor plans. Cause it's like a hobby of mine is to look at floor plans on like the architectural whatever website. And just look for hours. And I find myself because I know what a house costs in Prescott, Arizona, and I know what it costs to build per square foot.

And so I find myself looking at houses, and it fits like a floor plan that I love, but it's 2,400 square feet. I'm like, that's too big. Because I have it in my mind that I'm not going to be able to afford 2,400 square feet, 2100 square feet I can do, but not 2400. And I'm limiting myself because it goes hand in hand with my business can't make that much in the next four years and it absolutely can if I want it to.

So then it's this catch 22 of do I want it because I'm supposed to want it? And everyone's telling me that seven figures is the new six figures? Whereas three years ago, when I broke a hundred thousand dollars and made more money than anyone in ever in my family. And I was like, you and I were boxing.

And I was like, I cannot believe this. This is my life. And now here I am thinking that's not enough. What has happened to me?

AL: Yes. We have a colleague - I won't name her because I don't know if she would want me to share, she's “I want to keep my business small and simple”.And by small, we're still talking 250 gross a year. And very little overhead. Maybe a VA, she's “I don't have to do live launches. I just use my email list and I get to love what I do. And I don't have to go crazy trying to make this really complex and scale cause you're supposed to scale”.

To me, it was like an experiment. Let's see what happens if I try to scale. Let's see what's possible. And it reminds me of somebody that I knew in graduate school. She was like number one in the school. Everybody knew she was the best; she achieved the most. She had all the publications and I was like, ooh, I want to be the best.

I want to achieve all the things. I want to have all the publications. And I started down that path. And few years in, I realized like the life that she had to live to do that? She wasn't sleeping. There was a lot happening behind the scenes. It was really unhealthy. 

And I thought, oh, that title, isn't worth the life I would have to sacrifice to have a title. I want to live a life that is comfortable, that I don't have to feel fearful. That I won't be able to pay for my bills. I don't have to be afraid of being 88 and not being able to afford medical care. And I want to have fun during most days.

ML: Yeah. And I think a 10-year vision, do I still have a high touch group program? Probably not. But is it serving me right now? And am I doing a damn good job serving my students right now? I believe so. So I think like there, your business is also going to have seasons of what you want and how you want to earn your cash, and I think being grounded in that. 

It's not easy because I'm hearing these messages of... and even my coaches, my coach, and my... I guess you can call her an OBM. She doesn't really have a title, but they're both saying you are set up to make significantly more. Like we just have to put the gasoline on this and I just haven't given them the green light to put the gasoline on.

Cause I just don't know if I want to do that yet or not. I don't know what that requires of me. I don't know. I don't know if I want to do that or not. I certainly don't want to feel like I did in November and December. Yeah. And that could be fear, especially if they're telling me like you're set up and you don't really have to do too much more except probably pay more money for ads, which can get us to this Facebook conversation.

I don't have to do more in terms of output except for pay more money. Which again, what does that do to my profit margin? Is it worth it for me to pay this much more money? If that means that money doesn't come back into my pocket until the end of the year at tax time. 

AL: It's a roll of the dice. So that does lead in nicely to the I was going to say Facebook conversation, but it's really an ads conversation because -and you might explain this better than me. I'll give the dumbed-down version and you can smarten it up, but both the values are privacy and security. And we appreciate that has decided that it is going to set itself up to not provide the kind of data that people, groups like Facebook, YouTube Google we're pulling from us.

Like when you looked at that super cute skirt on that website, and then a little bit later, it popped up on your Facebook feed, right? That's because wherever you are, Google, Facebook, wherever was grabbing information about you and then putting this ad in front of you because somebody was paying them to. So now if our people want that's fine, but they'll need to opt into it.  

ML: It's not automatic. It's not default anymore. 

AL: I honestly thought this is how naive I am, I love those ads. I'm like, please tell me where that Zulily skirt was. Again, I can't find it. I like it, but apparently most people don't.

And so I think that the data now is as less than 6% or 7% of people are turning that tracking back on. So that's a big impact because it means now it's very hard to target it's to the people who would actually buy because we don't have the data with which to target. 

ML: Yeah. And I think that this is again, a market correction. A market adjustment and only time is going to really tell what happens. And we have to decide, are we going to stay in the advertising game and ride it out, or are we going to pull our ad dollars and put them somewhere else or whatever? 

So what we've done when my business is we are ramping up our Pinterest ads because Pinterest ads, apparently according to Hailey, function a little bit differently. And I trust her to know what that means. And we're also looking at LinkedIn ads because the nature of LinkedIn is different in the sense that like you can literally search out LPC, LCSW and things like that. Now I've been advised that LinkedIn ads will likely be more expensive than Facebook ads.

However, I think our targeting will be more specific. So I'm willing to pay a dollar more for LinkedIn ad, because I can say with certainty it's getting in front of the right person than paying maybe a dollar less on Facebook and Instagram, but not quite sure if my targeting is as good as it could be. So we are still staying in the ad game as of now, but we might be shifting our ad dollars to other platforms. 

AL: If we ever get our ad account back on Facebook, since they shut us down, y'all make sure you follow the rules to T and getting all the groups to know all the rules, we will probably continue to do some Facebook ads.

We've really never started. We've dabbled, but we really haven't had a cohesive approach to them. And we're probably going to try a little bit more of that. I am doubling down this year on SEO, doubling down on SEO on my website and I'm doubling down on email marketing. 

ML: Yeah.

AL: I know SEO is just another algorithm and it can change just like anything else. But my own anxiety says I have to have more control over my business and with going through what we're going through with Facebook, who used to show anything I said to thousands of people, and now it's showing it to two or two hundred. I feel so out of control in my own business that getting behind something that I have much more power behind feels like at least a safe place to be.

ML: Yeah. I only know this because I literally opened the email this morning, but I spent $309 with Facebook for advertising this month. And I got 16,000 impressions. So that means 16,000 people. I paid $309 for 16,000 people to see my stuff. 

However, I'll find out from Hailey, how many of those actually turned into clicks and how many of those actually turned into leads. Because it's going to be not 16,000 people. It's going to be like a hundred people perhaps. 

AL: And a percentage of that a hundred people who turned into a lead are going to turn into buyers. 

ML: Yep. And the good thing about my businesses, because my main program is premium priced, even if one of them turned into a buyer, it would be worth it. However, for those people who are selling hundred dollar courses or whatever, or a membership site, it's not necessarily worth it. So while you're doubling down on SEO, I don't think I've said this on the podcast yet, so they always get spoiler alerts whenever we chat.

I'm now a contributor to the American Counseling Association. So I write for the ACA weekly. And so where my website gets... I think Hailey's told me, 900, a thousand views per month on a good month. The ACA website gets 25,000 to 50,000. I was told like mental health awareness months and things like that, they can spike up to 50,000.

So that is 25 to 50 times the amount of traffic that my website gets. So even if one of my articles takes off and I get 500 subscribers from it, it took me two hours to write that article and I didn't have to pay. If I, so right now with my ad cost, I'd have to spend about $1,500 to get 500 leads.

I think that's right. Something like that. Let's just say, cause I, I spend about three, $3 a lead. Yeah. So three times 500 is 1500. Yeah. So whereas I could write one article for the ACA and get that same amount of leads. So time versus money. And a lot of people think like when your business is so big, you're not supposed to be giving your time anymore. And I think that's bullshit. I'd much rather give you two hours than $1,500. 

AL: Totally agree. So question: if I'm one of your listeners, and I am, and I'm thinking that blog post is going up, how are you writing that blog post to turn it into a lead? So how are you getting them from there, Where they are to where you are? What's the breadcrumb situation? 

ML: So this is what has been interesting to me is I have a representative. Her name is Danielle. She works for the ACA and when I started being a contributor, she's my go-to and this is an assumption of mine because I did not actually ask Danielle. I didn't say, hey, you know what, I actually teach counselors in this case cause it's the counseling association, what I actually teach counselors how to do is stop being counselors. So would that be okay for me to write about on your counseling association website? 

I made that assumption but she knows, I run a business and we've talked about business-related articles. So that might be a down the road thing because the way that it works for this particular contributorship is I'm obligated for 12 weeks of content one a week. And then at that 12-week mark, I can decide my frequency if I want to go down to once a month, if I want to do once every other week, if I want to do once every three months, I can choose. 

Now what I will base that on is how do these 12 perform. If each week I'm getting 500 leads - which would be the gold mine, I'm not saying that's what's happening - but if it was bet your ass I'm going to keep contributing weekly. But if it's something that's okay it's working, but it's not that great, then that might determine a drop in frequency.

I don't know that yet because I don't have the data yet. However what I am doing is writing about the time management stuff and the productivity's management and, or the productivity and the energy management stuff that I already talked about on this podcast. And I am using that for the ACA because it bridges that gap.

AL: Exactly. 

ML: I've created a specific opt-in for these people. So the Side Hustle schedule, which is a program that I offer for my audience for $47, which is like time management, how to find the time for your Side Hustle, essentially. I took all the Side Hustle language out of it. And I don't want to say dumb it down, but watered it down and turned it into an opt-in.

And so it's really now the values-based schedule, which is really day one of Side Hustle schedule. So I repurposed, I used what I already had and now they go to Marissa lawton.com/values, which you can go to, but you don't need to because you already get the stuff from me. Don't go there, listeners.

However, that leads them now to a funnel that gets them in my audience, knowing that I talk about productivity and time management. I don't have this yet. I haven't built it yet. But what I will build is a welcome sequence that over probably let's say 20-25 emails gets them from productivity to energy management to lifestyle visioning to Side Hustles.

So it's going to be a long or funnel for these people. I get that. I acknowledge that I'm playing the long game here. 

AL: Yes. 

ML: However, what if I got a thousand people, 2000 people just from this? It could be an opportunity to introduce a different offer. I could take Side Hustle Schedule, still have the Side Hustle language off of it, but I could turn it into another paid offer.

And just talk about, lifestyle instead of Side Hustle, swap out a couple of words and it could be something that I monetize to them. So even though I'm playing the long game for them to probably join Side Hustle Support Group, I could still monetize that journey. So it's a long vision of how this is going to be impactful for me. Also, it's credibility.

I am published on a bigger publication. I have a byline and all of those things. And then speaking of the ACA, so if any of you guys are counselors and I'm sure, the AMFT and you mentioned one psychological something that you were talking about when we were Voxing and you can share it here for people who are psychologists.

This can work for whatever pedagogy you follow or whatever license you belong to. But the ACA is really cool in the sense that in their byline, not only do they give you a link, which isn't always rare, but usually they make it. Then you have to do it like just your homepage or kind of a general link.

The ACA lets you do any link you want and it can include paid links. So people who sell books or like a lot of their contributors are authors, they can link straight to their book. That's amazing and very rare. So the fact that I could link straight to an opt-in was great. And if I do eventually have a book/priced type of offer, I wouldn't link straight to a thousand plus dollar offer.

But if I had a book-type price offer, I could link straight to a paid offer. Like you guys can't see me. My eyes are huge. That's unheard of. So finding a diamond in the river, like a gem of an opportunity, but finding that kind of opportunity is, could be all you need, right?

AL: Don't be offended when you try to find those and you go through 20 before anybody pays any attention to you, just know that. I get knocked up all the time. 

ML: Knocked up all the time?

AL: I get people knocking on my door to see if I will support whatever it is that they're offering or whatnot. The reality is that when you are a person like me, who is selling a thing, my audience only wants me to sell a certain number of times a year, or they're going to get sick of hearing from me. So I can't say yes to every single person who's coming and asking me, hey, will you promote my blah, blah, blah.

When people say no to you or they don't even answer your email, don't take that personally. It's a time management issue for them. Just go to the next. Thank you next. 

ML: Yes. And what I teach my students is when you're pitching and if you get a no, or you don't hear, you don't take them off your pitch list, you just move them to the bottom. Because eventually they'll cycle back through and you can pitch them again.

And at that time they might be, they might have hired a VA and now they can get to all their emails or whatever. It could be a million different things that just might be a better time for them. So it's not a no forever. It just might be a not right now. 

AL: Absolutely. And that happens to me a lot. If somebody hits me at a sweet spot, I'm like, oh, sure, let's do that. And I have two days to put together something and I happen to be in week two so my energy is really high. 

ML: Yeah. 

AL: It happens. If I'm in the middle of a launch and not paying attention to anything but the launch. 

ML: Yeah. And going back to that 10-year vision of where I was like, maybe I don't have such a high touch program down the road, I really want to see how this ACA contributorship does because if I had a contributor, I'm just, I'm putting this out into the world, but let's say I had a contributorship with Mind, Body, Green, Elephant Journal, the ACA, and all I did was write a blog a week for those three publications. And those three publications sent me a thousand leads between them each month I would do nothing else.

I would do nothing else. I would write three articles a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I'd write an article from seven in the morning until nine in the morning and I would be done. You know what I mean? I would put them through a funnel that would lead them to an evergreen program at that point, probably a membership site, because I'd want something lower touch.

And so I would still have to show up for however I've determined that membership site to be. If it would be like once a week touch with me, if it would be once every other week, I don't know what that would look like yet. But I would be... my lead acquisition, my traffic, would be handled by other people, essentially.

AL: Yes. 

ML: And then it would just be up to me to convert that traffic. 

AL: Yes. 

ML: And so I don't know those are down the road ideas that are playing around in my head, but what I love is that I am gathering, I'm experimenting with it right now. And it's taking about two hours of my week to be able to do that experiment.

And it's not costing me money. It's costing me a little bit of time. I've worked it into my schedule and now I get to see: is this experiment going to pay off? And what is the upside of this? 

AL: Yeah, and I love the experimenting. I love like we're just collecting data. We'll see what happens. It doesn't come from a sense of urgency and scarcity. It's proactive. Like we don't know what's going to happen in the markets. So let's get a little information about different ways the business model could work and that way we're prepared.

ML: And I think that I only feel safe enough to do that because Side Hustle is recurring revenue that I am still making money from it. It's just not as much in my pocket as it was before. 

But now I have Space Holder that brings me sales and I have Side Hustle Schedule that brings me sales, and these other things that I'm doing. That's the revenue that's now like my fun money. But Side Hustle pays my employees, pays my bills, puts money towards the house. 

And these other revenue sources, they're smaller obviously, because they're not as high priced as Side Hustle is, but that's oh, I want to get my hair done. Or I want to go splurge at the mall or whatever. That's where that money comes from and what to buy my kids brand new whatevers. 

That's where that money comes from. And I feel like that is almost a safety net that gives me that freedom to be able to explore or to experiment.

AL: Exactly. Because absolutely I would be in the hustle and grind mode if I was feeling like I couldn't pay my staff and about twice a year I go into a tailspin because I don't check in on my finances as much as I should. And I'm like, what if it looks terrible? And then I go and I look at everything. I'm like nope, you planned it. It worked out how you planned. It's fine. And you have more money than you think. 

ML: Yeah. 

AL: I feel like I'm about to enter one of those real soon. Yeah, everything's fine. Everything's fine. 

ML: So let's make this more concrete and think about, we're going to check it in again in quarter three, which will be, July, August, September, probably eight late August, or at least September-ish timeframe.

So we'll check in around the same time and then we'll check it in quarter four, which will be October, November, December, probably after Thanksgiving, before Christmas, let's just say. 

Between now and the mid to end of quarter two and when we check back in quarter three, what are you see coming down the pipe? What are your plans? What are your intentions? 

AL: Awesome. It's like a timekeeping tool for your business. So update to now we're in the middle of launch right now, but we probably have the majority of the sales we're going to get. Early bird pricing ends tonight. By the time you guys hear this, it will have ended.

And we're at about 72,000 and that's good. It's not as good as it has been. It's not as much money as we've made in the past. And it is more time consuming than it has been in the past. So instead of me just going in once a week and doing live Q and A's so eight hours of work for me for the eight weeks of courses live.

Now I'm doing small group coaching and I don't know how many of those cohorts we're going to have. Let's say maybe five. So that's an additional six hours, a total of six hours of work a week, as opposed to one for not quite the same amount of money as we were averaging before the pandemic. So that's where we are right now.

And we did a couple of pivots. We changed the messaging. We added an extra tier onto the course, and I've since in January added a membership site for people who are a little farther along. So that does not count the income from the membership site. I think our next steps from here really trying to get my Facebook ad account back on.

ML: Yeah. 

AL: But more importantly, what I'm seeing is we're going to start playing with YouTube again, the organic SEO is high. There really isn't anybody else doing online therapy on YouTube. So I'm going to try to grab some of that space. I'm going to do some Reddit on online therapy and because I've helped my business immensely in the past with SEO.

I'm going to be making a lot more content on my website and then taking that out to all of my other places, which has been years in, should have been happening. And now we have an affiliate. I don't even know what you would call.... we have a sponsorship name. So that is bringing in additional revenue as well.

ML: Yeah. 

AL: So dream world, I would love to have an SLO evergreen funnel set up by the end of next quarter, but I don't think that's happening. I think that's going to be a Q4 kind of thing. 

ML: And the great thing is you have so much content and so much value that you've already put together that creating a lower ticket offer would be just using something you've already made.

AL: Absolutely. 

ML: I think it was for the last launch during the pandemic launch or something you made like a frickin like novel? 

AL: A 50-page workbook. Yeah. 

ML: Use that. Don't make anything else and use that. That's your slow funnel.

AL: Even we did something called the Freedom Series, which by the way, I don't name yourself with free in it, because Facebook doesn't like that series didn't know that I was going to be a problem.

It's an exceptionally good workshop series. It's six workshops long. We're like why wouldn't we make that something that we sell? So that and the workbook are probably going to be some sort of...

ML: I would have your workbook be your $27 offer. And then I would have your first bump be the Freedom Series and priced at something around like 150.

 And then that's how I would do it. 

AL: I'm writing notes. Y'all when you get coaching, you write that shit down. 

ML: Yeah. So for me going from quarter two to quarter three here's what's been interesting is I made 160 off of a single launch of Side Hustle and that was the one that started in February. It's going to sustain me through 2021.

However, when the program was six months, I would launch twice and I made about 200 for the year, but I had two cohorts. It was like a hundred and a hundred. So I damn near in one cohort made what I had made in two. However, now all of a sudden, I like right now in years past, I'd be gearing up for the summer round of Side Hustle.

And I don't have that now. So I have no summer revenue coming in. So as at time of recording, this is where Summer Slowdown came in. I was like how can I have just a revenue bump in the summer? It's not going to be a hundred thousand dollars revenue bump, but I don't need it to be a hundred thousand dollars revenue bump.

It'd be great if it was 40,000 and made up what I would have made with two rounds of Side Hustle. So that's where that number came from. But I planned for a workshop series to have a revenue bump in the summer. Now off of that, again - spoiler alert, off of that revenue series. I am selling for the first time after five rounds, a self-guided Side Hustle.

AL: Oh! 

ML: I know, you guys can't see everything. 

AL: Yeah. 

ML: I don't know exactly what this feels like it, but when your baby goes to college like that's what it feels like. Like this program is so much of me and I'm like can it stand on its own now? Can it stand on its own? And I think it can, I think it can make me feel like, oh, it's like getting me.

It's like catching me too. You guys know this program is my baby. And I am so involved in it. But when I went to the once a year model, we started February 1st. I think it was a February on a Monday, whatever that Monday was. And it was like at the beginning of the month, I think it was the first.

And by like February 14th, I had seven applications to Side Hustle and I was like do I tell them they're two weeks late and try and get them in and catch them up real fast or do I wait and make them wait? And I ultimately came to the decision that it wasn't fair to my current cohort to have people join later.

And this goes to that model that we were talking about at the very beginning. And so I said, here's what we can do. I can get you inside Space Holder right now. And you can still have monthly coaching with me, but it is going to be almost a year before the next round opens. And many of them did. Many of them decided to come into the Space Holder and we've been working together on a monthly basis.

And they're ready. They're ready for something new and for the next step. And for me to make them wait until February doesn't feel fair to them, but I also would never have them join the cohort. Now that we're six months in. That doesn't make any sense either. And so I could start another live nine-month version of Side Hustle right now.

But the reason that I went to nine months in the first place was to take November and December off. So I and my team could have two full months at the end of the year. I and my team will be meeting to change anything we need to change, update through anything we need to update, make anything better based on the feedback.

But if I started a live Side Hustle right now, then I wouldn't get that time off my team wouldn't get that time off anything. So really the best decision came. Let's get them the information now. If after the summer and if after they've had the self-guided version, they want to come up into the live version in the fall when enrollment opens, we can absolutely do that. 

They won't pay me twice for the same information. We'll come up with a prorated rate that makes sense for if they want to come into the live version after they've accessed the self-study, I will figure that all out. But it felt like the best decision to get people what they wanted and what they were asking me for and yet not offend or mistreat my current students.

AL: Absolutely. 

ML: And so that's what happened and it just happened naturally, but I can see this being an option every summer, as our caseload's naturally decreased in the summer and we have a little bit more time, here's a self-paced knowledge base. Like everything that you need to know about a Side Hustle. You can work through it. You can study on your own. 

And if you are a self-starter and an implementer, you don't need anything else. But if you want that accountability from me, if you want that group cohort feel, then join us live in the fall. We'll get started in the new year. 

AL: I freaking love it. And as a buyer, I would love it. I want stuff the moment I buy. I want to be able to get in and start playing in that moment. And to think there are places in the course that they could totally be getting a head start, and then the really hard parts they could be working on through the live round. I love it. I love it. 

ML: It makes me nervous as hell. Like, you never know if something that's going to hold up without you being able to explain. That's my biggest fear. Somebody is going to get in the curriculum and be like, wait, I have a question. And I've tried really hard to make sure that the curriculum is airtight, that it stands on its own. I don't know. 

AL: That's so tough. That's so tough. So that's interesting because your price point is much higher than my price point. What we've been thinking about doing that's a little similar is being able to have an evergreen variety available through a Facebook ad, but it would still be my exact course.

It's not a different course. With the invitation that they can go through live as many times as they want to because that's the offer. Now, it had not occurred to me to separate out here's a lower price point for an evergreen version. If you want to go through live, you would... Yeah. That's interesting.

ML: Yeah. Hailey who we've mentioned several times and she's going to be editing this show or her team will be editing the show. That's what she does. She has a signature offer that people can buy self-paced or self-study, self-guided, DIY, however you want to label it. And then she runs it live as well.

And so they can come into the live. But I believe if I know her business model, that there's an upcharge for that to go from the self-study into the live. 

AL: And that makes some sense from a cold lead is more likely to pay a lower price and then upgrade later. I love it. I think that's super exciting and so much less stress for you as the business owner to be generating sales and leads. It's always easier to get somebody to buy twice and then to find two new buyers. 

ML: And you're going to see that too, because the 72,000 that you just mentioned, that's only their first purchase. You now have continuing programs and the lifetime value of that customer is going to be higher. And so it'll be 72,000, but then we can measure how much of them then come to Momentum and how much of them then do more work with you or whatever.

AL: Yeah. Yeah. 

ML: Awesome. All right. I cannot wait to check in on, in the middle of quarter three and see what happened. If what we thought would happen happened, if something totally different is happening. Cause I didn't anticipate anything that's happening between our first chat and our second. So we could be blown away, totally surprised. Or we could be right on track. 

AL: Fun. I'm so glad you suggested it. 

ML: Yeah. And so for anybody who is looking for momentum to carry on their online practice, to carry on their lifestyle building in the way that makes sense for them, where should they check out? Or where should they head? 

AL: The Online Therapy Academy. So just come to my website, The Online Therapy Academy, if you don't remember that, my name Amber Lyda. It will come up. 

ML: Awesome. And then you can find all the resources there, whether you want to shore up your practice or whether your practice is already rocking and rolling, but you want to talk about some of this lifestyle management stuff, Amber has got you covered on both sides. 

Awesome. Alright I'll talk with you probably tomorrow or later today. We'll meet back here on the podcast next quarter. Talk to you later. 

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