The Story Behind Zynnyne with Kelly Higdon

If your heart is set on having a side hustle, you deserve the opportunity to succeed

Fears of failure got you down? You’re not alone. 2021 started out rough, to say the least.

That’s why it’s such a joy to bring on guests like Kelly Higdon, one half of the badass duo Kelly and Miranda who founded Zynnyme. Kelly’s willingness to take leaps of faith is super inspiring. Not to mention, she is wise beyond her years and has lots of advice for anyone just starting out on their side hustle journey.

In this episode we talk fear of failure, surviving imposter syndrome, virtual retreats, and letting data guide your decisions rather than the opinions of others. You won’t wanna miss this one!

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ML: Hey, Risers, and welcome back to the show. I'm super excited about this episode, because we have Kelly Higdon from Zynnyme, and we have a chance for Miranda to hop on and join us later. So you might just hear her pop in in the middle of the episode. If not, it'll just be Kelly of the famous Kelly and Miranda duo.

So what we're really going to talk about today is their journey to online income. They really are the ground-breakers in online income for therapists. They've been doing this for a long time. They have a really solidly established business, and I know that there are so many lessons for us to learn from them along the way.

So Kelly, if you could just introduce yourself a little bit, tell us a little bit about where you are, if you're even still practicing clinically, or what you did clinically when you were practicing, and then what you're doing now as part of the Zynnyme. 

K: Yeah, thanks for having me on here. I'm an MFT. Miranda is as well in California. I sold the assets to my practice man, like, four years ago. I had a brick-and-mortar practice that ended up going virtual because I moved from Orange County to the San Diego area. And in that practice, I worked with a lot of therapists. I worked with a lot of people going through and coming out of divorce and I worked with spiritual crises.

My background is my MFT is from seminary. So I worked with a lot of people leaving their faith or transitioning their faith into a different kind of perspective. Yeah, so I haven't done that therapy myself in a few years, and that feels a little different to say, but yes. 

So I renewed my license in December of 2020. I'm an LPC, and I'll come up for renewal again in 2022. And I don't know if I'm going to... I kept my license. But I'm just not practicing with it. I feel like... to stop it and then restart, it would be a lot more work, and it's still important to me to have it 'cause I work so hard for that. So, not using it in the traditional way anymore, but then always having the option. 

ML: If you really wanted to pick up two clients on the side or something like that, you could do that if you want. So when you talk about selling the assets, let's dive into that a little bit, because I just think that's fascinating. Did you sell the building? Did you sell all the hardware, like the computers, the desks? Did you spell the brand name? How does that work? 

K: Yeah. So there's a couple of ways to sell your practice when you're in a solo practice, and selling it, it looks very different than when you're in a group practice, because if you're in a group practice and you have employees, those employees go to the new owner. 

Typically, of course, all of this can be worked out whenever you're working with the attorneys and coming up with your terms. But as a solo practice, the clients aren't going to go to the new clinician. Per se they could, if they want to, it's up to the client. The files do not go with that clinician, either.

The files stayed with me, but I didn't own the business. The building, excuse me, I owned. I was on a lease, I had furniture, but the main thing I had was a website that had amazing search engine optimization. I sold the branding. I sold the website because... this is another thing that we teach in Bootcamp about tracking your numbers, because there's a value assigned to that, so your call volume website, visitors, conversion rates, all those kinds of things. 

So that's why I don't like saying I sold my practice. I like to be specific and say that I sold the assets because... the full practice, it wasn't like my EIN got transferred to a new owner at all. So we were just able to do that.

ML: That's so cool. And I love that you distinguish that, and that you point out that there is value to different pieces of this when we value our online programs, the actual coaching or interaction with us has a value. 

K: Yes. Workbooks and physical things that people print out, or whatever, has a value. The community that... if you have a Facebook group, or I know you guys recently moved to Mighty Networks... like, if you guys have a community, that has value. So being able to evaluate or assign valuation to these different pieces is really important, and it gets a little blurry when it's dependent on you or your brand as it is the individual. So you have to think about some of those things. 

ML: Yeah, for sure. You mentioned Bootcamp. Was that your first offer, or how did you move into online income? Were you just getting approached by other people in California, or no? Just tell us how it happened. 

K: I... a lot of people think that Miranda and I were friends before we started our business. We were not. I hired her as my coach when I started my practice. Because I'm type A, I want to do things quickly.

I want it. I don't want to reinvent the wheel. So I was working with her, and then I suggested to her, I was like, "I don't understand why you do one-on-one this way, where you keep having to repeat the same patterns and pathways." I was like, "Have you ever thought about, like, creating a course or organizing it so that someone like me could just rip through it quickly?"

She's, "Yeah, I wanted to, I just don't have the capacity to do it on my own." And then she said, "You want to do something like that together?" And I thought she was just being kind. And funny. And I was like, "Yeah, no." Took her about two or three times in the last one. She said, "Look, I don't partner with anybody. That's not typical for me, but I'm going to ask you one last time." So that's what we started talking about it. 

We had met in person maybe only once. And I want to... I know we could talk about business partnerships, but we lucked out. Yeah. And the way we did it, that it's worked out the way it has... I have strong feelings about business partnerships and how to do them well.

But we lucked out. And we started our first course, which was how to build a website in 30 days, using Squarespace as the platform. So many clinicians are on WordPress and get hacked and don't know how to keep it secure and all those kinds of things. And we found Squarespace was easy and accessible. I think this was back when Squarespace was like 5.0, okay? So 7.1.

And what we found is that when we created this program it wasn't just, Okay, click here, click here, put this here. We're infusing it with, like, principles of marketing, principles of running your business and how to get better client outcomes and why we have a niche. And so it was a little bit more business-driven than just tech.

So that was our first product. And I was pregnant at the time when we launched it. And then from there, we've had several other programs prior to Bootcamp, and since Bootcamp, we've created other programs. 

K: Yeah. Okay. So much to unpack there. Miranda was already in the coaching space?

ML: Yeah. Yeah. She was. She had started MFT Guide, and that was really focused on helping people prepare for licensure because she failed her exam. By one point, she later found out. She didn't fail it. It was a mistake when she passed. And that started out as like a Yahoo Chat or AOL chatroom or something. So it was a few years prior.

And so people had started just asking her about licensure, and then when she started her practice, she was quite successful in a kind of rural town. And so then she got inquiries about that, and she was doing one-on-ones. And that was about it. Yeah. 

ML: And so then you found her and sought her out to help you build your practice. But then you introduced the idea of courses to her. So where had you heard about courses before? Was this something you were already interested in and thinking of, or is it just... you had seen some?

K: So this is so long ago. So old now. I don't know. Back then, I know you said, like, at the intro we are groundbreaking, but I feel like Casey Truffaut live and Grotowski and a few others came before us, and Casey was doing online. Like, conferences and stuff like that.

But she... it was back when the tech was, like, you had to dial in. So maybe it came from there. I really don't know. I have no idea. What I love about this, though, is everybody talks about, Oh, coaching is so saturated. There's so many coaches are so many courses. The market is so saturated, but as long as there has been the Internet, there has been online income.

This I really like. I started six years ago, which is not that long ago, but in Internetland six years ago is a long time. All the things, like, you talk about having drag and drop platforms... like, I came on where people were still building their own courses on their websites, or it wasn't even like a teachable or any kind of platform yet.

So just in the six years that I've been doing this, right, things have changed drastically. But I would say I'm, like, the third or fourth wave of the entrepreneur. As long as there has been a modem, like, the meaning being, like, when you're getting on the Internet, dial-up sound, there have been online entrepreneurs.

ML: Yeah. Yeah. 

K: I feel like a dinosaur sometimes, but I also like this whole idea of there's a lot of coaches there are and the difference between a coach that's successful and a coach that isn't is the one that knows how to stand out and not compete. It's what our motto is. And we have this manifested for Bootcamp and it says, I don't compete.

I stand out like that. You gotta figure out your lane and stay in it. 

Am I going to teach? I help my one-on-ones with like their launches and courses and things like that. Other people have you look at, Katie keeps me who does like her whole, like, group therapy thing. Like, she's got her lane and knows what she's doing, wearing more Bach with her group practices. Like everyone, when they figure out what sets them apart. And what's unique about them. 

ML: What do you think keeps that from happening though? Because I feel like when I work with people on the cusp of that, imposter syndrome comes up, and perfectionism.

K: Those are probably the first... the two biggest things that I see is, Oh, who am I to do this? And Okay, I'll do it, but I want to make sure it's perfect before I put it out. 

Yeah, we don't do that. We sell first and then we create later. That's always been our model. I think a lot of people don't understand marketing and they don't understand the tools. And so they get locked up in creating and they don't move into first. You got to know if you can sell things. We know. You know how to do things or teach things, whatever it is that you're going to do in your course, because that's what you've been honing in your life. But the growth edge is learning how to sell and sell with integrity, and in a way that's authentic to you. 

ML: Yeah. So you had this first Squarespace platform course, which I love that you bring up Squarespace, because it's my favorite as well. We provide Squarespace websites to everybody inside of Side Hustle, so they don't have to build their own. It's all built for them, but I choose the Squarespace platform on purpose.

But so from there, where did you run that several times and then figure out a new offer? Did you just run it once and be like, Okay, we sold something?

K: It was evergreen, okay? And then we started hopping on the phone and starting to understand more about what people were needing and what people are wanting. And as you do a program, you start to get feedback and you start to pivot things. And then we hired some coaches to teach us how to sell a higher-end kind of coaching program that involved a long sales process where we were on the phone 30 minutes to 45 minutes. 

We don't do that anymore, but I will say that doing that process gave us the information to create all future programs, because you're really tapping into the language of your ideal clients, what their pain points are, all those kinds of things. It's not efficient in this day and age, but back then, it was really our heart's desire to meet the needs of our community.

And so we did that for a while, and then Squarespace upgraded their platform. So every time there was a change, we had to go back and redo the course. Since then, we like... this is not where we want to stay. And then we're slowly evolving into what is our real house and finding it. And over the past ten years, it's really refined into what sets us apart is that we focus on client outcomes and all things business. 

So we're teaching those nuts and bolts and growth strategies, but the way we do it enhances positive clinical outcome and income. So it's finding that win-win, right? So I think we did an eight-week private practice accelerator program. That was more intensive. Then we moved into some, like, Masterminds, and then Bootcamp came to be.

And when we did Bootcamp, our coaches were like, No, you're devaluing your work. You need to do the high-end program only. And we thought, No, we've talked to enough therapists. We know that this needs to be shifted and it needs to be accessible in a different. 

We broke up with our coaches, which is fine. I learned a lot from them, but at that point we knew: no, we wanted to create this kind of, like, base of knowledge for people. 

ML: Yeah. You mentioned selling with integrity, but it sounds like integrity came up here again because the experts, the gurus were telling you to run your business according to this model. You obviously were making sales and bringing in revenue with that model. But in alignment with your integrity, it was telling you to go to a more accessible program. 

K: I felt, really, Bootcamp needed to exist first before all the other programs. It happened for a reason. But what we realized is like the people in these programs or people that weren't signing up for these programs, because they needed something different, which is what Bootcamp was going to be. 

So when we did Bootcamp, we invited all of our past clients in for free. We, like, brought them in. Now there's another word for it, but we gave them, like, a pass, and then we sold our first round and we said, "We have to sell X in order to move forward." If we don't sell X we'll refund them, we're going to do something else. So we hit that number and then we built it that first round. 

ML: Oh my gosh. 

K: Was it? ... I think it was a ten-day program at the time. Ten days of life.

And we built it day by day, and then we got feedback and we keep refining, and every year it's the same thing. We just refined in another module this round, so it just keeps shifting. And then from there we moved into doing live events, other kinds of Masterminds retreats and things like that.

ML: Yeah. That's exactly how I built Side Hustle. I pre-sold it. We had nine people joined that first round and it was a six-month program at the time. And I built it week for week. Like, every week, it's sometimes like the lessons dropped on Monday and sometimes Sunday night at 11:30 PM, I was hitting the publish button.

But I built it. I was paid. I was compensated to build it versus spending the multitude of hours that it took. And then maybe not even making any money. 

K: Yeah. So it was compensated to build it. And then from there I've tweaked and tweaked. Now, this round five that just opened in February, it's a nine-month program now. So I did build the other three months of content. I did build that all at one time, but because I had run it for previous rounds, I knew what that content was. I'd had the direct contact with students in that feedback piece. So I didn't need to drip that out. I could go ahead and build that all in one chunk, but it was based on experience.

ML: Yeah. Yeah. So you have run intensives, you've done one-on-one coaching, you've run this Bootcamp kind of group program model. You said retreats and intensives or retreats, which I want to talk a little bit about events. Couple of questions here. a) which has been your favorite, like, delivery method, and why? And then b) do you think a successful business needs different kinds of offers, like different touch points like this, like, an ascension model, a value ladder or whatever term is out there in the world that they call it. Or do you think that it matters as much? 

K: I've seen people do all different ways. So I'm never going to say you have to do this one way. I will say when you're starting out, though, I don't really love the ascension model, starting off with a "here's a $27" thing. And that, I feel like when you have another business, especially if you're in private practice... you only have the time. And so I really love doing what we just say. Do your highest and best. What is the ultimate thing way of working with people that you want, and start there. And then you can fill in below after. 

ML: Yeah, you can, if that doesn't work for them, then they can descend down. I've always liked that better, but I've seen it work both ways. I have friends that do all different kinds of things. We do a lot of free stuff. And a lot of people are like, you should charge for those things.

But no, I... for me, it's the thing about access.

K: Yeah. It's a thing about... I'm preparing my ideal clients for Bootcamp and other programs by giving them this base training. So I'm shaping my customer or client ahead of time and making sure it's a good fit. If you go through our free stuff and we annoy you, you're not going to want to be in our program, so it's just a good way to be. Building a community and also just to be of service in there. And we are able to be of service because we are profitable, which is what I teach. Even in private practice model, you need to be profitable and sustainable and then you can figure out what your give back is.

ML: Yeah. Are you familiar with Megan Hale? Have you met her? 

K: I feel like I know the name.

ML: But she's a former therapist as well. And she has moved into some, like, money coaching and profit-first stuff. 

K: Oh yes. I've seen her in my IG reels, I think. 

ML: Yeah. And so what I really love about her is she does two things.

She brings this, therapeutic concept of attachment styles and your relationship with money. So if you have an actual relationship with money. But the other thing that she really talks about is enoughness with money. And she was on the podcast just a couple of episodes ago, and that's what we dove into: when you reach this enoughness level with money, then your service, you can... you're so much freer. You're so much freer to show up either in a free capacity, like giving free content away, or just in the way that you're serving your maybe therapy clients or your online income customers, you just serve them in a different way once that enoughness level of income is reached.

K: For sure. Yeah. And I think people sometimes look at us and be, like, that's a lot of free content, but over ten years I've had up.... I don't know. It just is, and I hope that it will continue to, I know you had asked me what's my favorite, though. I will say in person.  I love Bootcamp, though. That's really hard. Yeah, I love Bootcamp and I love in person, how's that? No, in person. 'Cause it's so funny. January 2020 on this show is I was, like, "This is the year I am doing a retreat. So get ready for October. "And then two months later, the whole world shut down. So I was like, "Of course the one day I say it out loud in published public to my audience is the year, that happens." But it's something that is on my heart. And I know I will have an in-person event. That is part of what I offer.

ML: But you guys had that happen, especially being in California as well, where more stricter state and more locked-down state. So how was it for you, before the pandemic, to offer in-person events? It sounds like you enjoy them. And then now, post- or midst-pandemic, do you have plans to bring them back? 

K: Yeah, we don't right now this year, because we are in a state that is very locked down. We do have a retreat we're doing virtually, and some of our clients are getting together in person because they live in the same area or their states are not locked down, but we can't do that. There's just too much liability there. All of our retreats this year will continue to be virtual prior to the pandemic we had. 

We've... I've always just been, we've always been that person, that's gone to the conference and held, like, hosted happy hours or hosted, like, meet-and-greets and things. So we started with that. And then we joined with Joe Sanok, who practices the practice, and Julie Hanks. And we did Most Awesome Conference for two years. That was an event that unlike any other there was a lot of work, but it was so cool because we brought together about 30 people. Maybe. Yeah. 

In the house we had makeup artists, hairstylists... we had... Ernesso was there doing the videos. We had a photographer doing their headshots. Then we also did breakout sessions and masterminding and one-on-one coaching for three days. And we had a coffee cart and we had food trucks. And it was, like, this whole... it was an experience. And I think that's what I love is creating experiences for people.

And so since then, since that conference, because we wanted to do a conference in a different way, we do retreats with our coaching clients. We rent these condos on the beach and everyone stays together for three days and we bring in activities and things like that. This year has to be virtual.

I just like being in space with people. I find that it's connecting and bonding. I'm a hugger. I like to know. I like to just... I like to be with people. Yeah, so right now we're making it work with virtual. Not everyone loves it. We miss each other, but...

ML: And for the retreats or the events, like, you'd said something about to do one-on-one coaching with people, you'd like them to have gone through Bootcamp first for the retreats. Is that similar, or are these people who are?

K: Okay, depends on the type of retreat and what we're doing. So we do currently, out of the pandemic, we created these virtual retreats, and we also have another program for Bootcampers, and they get a retreat once a year which maybe one day could be in person. Fingers crossed. But right now we do like masterminding and things like that. I find, like Most Awesome Conference, that was just anybody could join. And it was great. I loved it before, like one-on-one coaching for year long. 

It's typically I work with people who... they're not just starting out. They have some foundation. Not everyone has had Bootcamp, but the majority have, yeah.

ML: And so with transitioning these typical in-person events, which is... you say you're a hugger, so talk about high touch. What has been like... has there been any really cool things that have happened after taking them virtually, and what have been the struggles of taking them virtually?

 K: Right when we had to go virtual last May, we had to go virtual with our retreat. We were all the struggle there. It was just figuring out how to do all that when we had booked rooms and all the things. And we, back in the day when we thought, How long is this going to last? And everyone's waiting. Do I get a ticket? Do I not? So there's that kind of stuff.

But we have figured out how to create intimacy and connection, even in a virtual space. My dog is probably gonna bark here in a minute. And I would say the positives are that we kept going. I think it was important to still find ways to create those connections for people. And if we had stopped, I think it would have caused more harm than good.

And we did some things to prepare people, to help them grieve because they were anticipating an in-person thing. And so that they can move into a place of acceptance and being present for what we had planned for the virtual retreat. 

ML: What do you think is, or what are some of the tips or skills that you've put in place to keep that connection, even over a virtual event? 

K: Yeah. It's things to do in terms of creating group chats and things like that prior. So people get to know each other really well. For our one-on-one coaching clients, we do Marco Polo. And then for other events we've done like a cohort in our Mighty Network. Yeah. And then maybe having, like, happy hours or get-togethers beforehand.

So that getting to know you time, our coaching clients, they've been with us a long time, so they, everyone pretty much knows each other fairly well. And then we do some ceremonial kind of activities of like how we start and how we end the retreat. So we feel like there's some bookending instead of just... I'm showing up here, I'm going to be on Zoom again. 

We also encourage them to create an environment around them, so it's set apart and different and they're not in there daily. So a lot of our coaching clients, this round, are renting Airbnbs and things like that, so that they can step out of the day-to-day and not have kids running around them. Not everybody's able to do that, but those that can are, and that helps the focus and it helps tell the body, Hey, we're doing something different. Let's pay attention in a new way.

ML: That phrase in a new way has come up a few times. 'Cause you said, "I want, we wanted to do a conference in a new way doing this Zoom."

K: You really listen, Marissa.

ML: I try and be a good interviewer and doing Zoom in a new way. So is that innovation, something that's important to you and Miranda in your brand? Does that work in other places? 

K: Yeah, I'm not interested in... yeah, just doing what other people have done. I think there's something thrilling about leading and trying something new. Even if it doesn't work out. I like that. And I like to create something that's uniquely reflective of us, and I'm still learning and I'm learning for other people how to do that. If you even look at the art of therapy, so to speak, I think it's going through a much-needed transition. Hopefully some decolonization and some changes around how we do therapy.

And so I wanted to look at that from a how do we do business and how does that impact therapy? And it's way more fun. I don't know. 

ML: Do you really love going to conferences? 

K: I really love having the lanyard and walk here around with a bunch of notecards and stress balls and things like that, that you don't really need sitting in these big rooms. I wanted to do something different or I just... I want to make an impact in a different way. And our biggest thing is that we're the worst paid master's degree. And our mission is to change that for therapists. I think innovation is a requirement of that. 

ML: I hear bravery, which I don't know if you would identify with or not, but do you think this has been something that has been with you always, is this just part of who you are or is this something that you've cultivated?

K: No, I think it's a part of who I've been. I've always... I will play it safe to a degree. Miranda will push my edge a little bit more of but. I do not like to do things that don't make sense. And I remember even as a kid in school or in church, I'm like, "What, why do we do it this way?" And I usually stay within systems and buck up around, against them within the system.

Some people don't do that. They leave and create a new system. And I... and so I think there's a bit of that. Maybe it's rebelliousness. I don't know. Maybe it is bravery. But there's a part of me that wants to shift things, to include more people, to see a different way to get to the next stage of growth.

ML: Yeah. So for the listeners who maybe are a little bit more risk-adverse, what would you say to them? 'Cause I've heard you say, like, a lot of the things I say: "Just go out and do it. Try it. If you fail, it's failing forward." 

K: I think sometimes failure is a privilege. I don't think everyone can afford to fail the same as other people. You know what I mean? And I know some people would disagree with me on that, but I totally get it. I'm the person I take calculated risks, but at the same time, if I think about it, like Zynnyme... what were we thinking? How has that totally been thought through? And it's worked out. But I had my practice, I think about it. I still had my other business, as like the safety net. And then I remember letting that go and being like, Whoa, I'm all in now. 

So I would say it's... read the room. What is working for you right now? What do you have, like, leverage? What is working? And that's one way to mitigate failure. You are going to fail. Like, there's no way to avoid that, but I think it's about making sure that you can afford to take the risk. So for some people that looks like, Do you need to have some savings?

Awesome. For other people: Do you need to have wise counsel or coaching so that you don't make the mistakes that everybody makes in the beginning?

So there are things you can do to mitigate that risk, but there's no guarantee ever, but you will learn, that's for sure. But for some people, they can't afford to just quit everything and go do the thing.

ML: So what are some things that would help them get there faster or more easily? Yeah. And for the listeners of the show, like, when I'm talking about a side hustle for some people, that's just a couple of hundred bucks to pay their loans. Some people are, like, you're looking to sell their practice and really make this big shift. And then there's listeners who are all in between that. And so I think getting clear on what it is that you want and need makes a big difference on that. 

Also, can we just say, I never thought this was going to be my path. Like I thought I was, first of all, I never thought I was going to do private practice. Then I did private practice, and thought, Oh, I'm going to do this forever. And then here I am. Like, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm going to do this other business. And I want to do retreats and did not happen that way. And that's okay too. So yeah, there's many paths. There's many ways to do things. Yeah.

Did you need a sense of, and we can fill in whatever word works here? Openness, trust, faith? Did you have to have a sense of openness that this path that was unfolding you was your path? Or did you just go did you just run for it? 

K: I stepped slowly towards the... yeah. Yeah, there's a bit of faith. And also, I... there's, like, a sticker that Miranda gave me for my laptop. You can't see it, but it says "data beats opinion." I like that. And I feel that, like, when something's working, the numbers are there. And it'll tell you if you look around and see what's working, like I said, so it's a bit of faith and a bit. Yeah. And being able to see objectives, really, I think. 

Here's Buddhism for you: detaching from the outcome, right? If you love your podcast, but your podcast is not getting listened to and your blog is getting read, whatever, I'm just making up examples... then, what does the data tell you?

So having a little bit of objectivity there and being able to respond to that data, I think is important as well. 

The other thing too, I think, is you can build into how you do things a way that protects you a little bit. Like I said, we were like, "We're going to sell Bootcamp. If we don't get X amount, we're not doing it." And when you just refund, yes, it costs you a little bit of money to do the refund, but compared to dragging into a program, that's not gonna really take off, so there are other things you can do to mitigate the risk. Other people don't need to do that. They're totally fine. I'm going to try it.

If it doesn't work, I applaud that. I think that's great, if you can do that. Yeah. And the "be curious." Yeah. Don't attach and be curious, because what you think, what we thought people needed, we had to pivot away from that. That's why we don't do the first program we did. And there was a time for those in-person, like, conferences. And then we moved into that lettuce into some other ways of working with people. So it all builds upon each other. 

ML: Yeah. Would you say that you made these evolutions happen or would you say that they happened more organically, more naturally, or a combination?

K: I don't know, I'm throwing the hard ones. I'm not that insightful. Miranda and I do business retreats and we look at, like, where we want things to be. Yeah. How we get there is what evolves, but we do have some, we have goals in mind, for sure. And this is something we also teach in Bootcamp. Like, you have your vision, and that as you get closer to that vision, the vision then moves ahead of you and then it evolves. There's a point where... Zynnyme was supposed to just be a side hustle.

It was not ever meant to be our main source of income. It was not ever meant to be as big as it is. Yeah. So it became the side hustle. And then as we're doing the side hustle, then we're like, "Ooh." And then the vision shifted. It... it progressed. And then we pursued that. And then once we got to that point progressed again.

Like last year, before it was around my 40th birthday, we did a retreat. And I remember us saying why, if we had a team, because we've always just done it together with maybe an assistant, maybe some project management. That was it. And so that was like the next evolution. So this past year we hired our whole team. And it's still growing. And then it evolved into something I never imagined. I was thinking, like, a couple people, and it's gotten much bigger than that. So yeah. And five years ago, we weren't interested in having a team. We've liked keeping it small.

ML: You mentioned that Miranda pushes you. And then earlier in the episode you talked a bit about the business partnership stuff. So would you say as this path is unfolding and all of this stuff, would you say that being partners... would this, we can't... it's all hindsight, but could something like this had happened without being partners on your own, or do you think that partnership really is essential for the growth that you guys have had?

K: I see people do what we do all the time on their own is very intelligent. She put up... I think she would say, and I don't want to speak for her, but she has said in the past we wouldn't be here if we weren't for Kelly. I say the same thing.

We each bring something different to the table. And I think that is what has brought us to this evolution, this next evolution of Zynnyme. Yeah, sure. You can do it on your own. I think a partnership is it's a lot more work. Yeah. And you've got to have a partner who brings something to the table that you don't have too often. I see people partner and they don't need a partner. Or they're partnering with somebody just like them, which is what you don't need. You need somebody who brings the skillset that you don't necessarily shine in. And we're very clear on those roles. And there are some things that we do in tandem together, but then there are things that we do each individually.

So I have other courses, like, I have a course through my other business calibrate your year. Like, I've done other things, Miranda's done other things, so we can do things separate. And it's fine. 

ML: That was going to actually be my next question because on Instagram, I think, I follow you as Kelly Higdon Coaching. So are you guys, do you guys have separate offers and separate businesses or separate things that you do? 

K: Yeah, I think Miranda does. She's just doing her one-on-one. Through hers and I do my one-on-one, and then I have my course I've played around with the idea of doing Masterminds, but now that Zynnyme has grown like it has recently, that's on hold for the moment and coaching is full. So there's not a lot. I use that Instagram account just for my own amusement. 

ML: Yeah. So what do you think as far as audience size, as far as revenue, like getting down into some of those figures, what do you think has been? Like most successful for your growth?

Has... is there a certain marketing platform that worked best for you? Or where are you from? Where did you find your audience in the beginning? Some of those things, yeah. Miranda already had some stuff with MFT Guide, so that's something she brought to the table that I couldn't there. It's like... what worked five years ago is not what's working now. You know what I mean? Or we're actually going full circle. I feel like we found that, if we speak at a conference that's helpful versus if we have a booth. 

Now, if we have a booth and we speak at the same both, then that's even better. Being on podcasts and things like that has been that's this new evolution. I think the visibility in a lot of spaces, so well, particularly with our SEO, yeah. Being found. Easily. And that's required a lot of content creation and things, and believe it or not, Pinterest is one of our biggest driving girls all the time. Yeah. 

And people think Pinterest, yes, because therapists are out there looking for ways to help their clients. And then they also stumble upon ways to help their business. So we use a lot of different things, but. I remember early on, we went to a lot of conferences, and I had a baby at the time and I was like, "I can't keep doing this." So we stopped. And then we found we did more virtual things and... yeah, I don't know. It's just like a combo and now we're trying some paid ad strategies. 

We've never really done paid or building our audience, but we're just dabbling just to see as a test, we want to see if it works for us. Yeah. Some more of that going for it and some more of that innovation. And I love that you... like you said, podcasts is the new way.

ML: It's like you're taking these things that have worked and then you take you exactly what you've been talking about. All episode, you look at... you read the room, you look at the landscape of the market and say, "Okay, conferences." Now we have this virtual way to replicate a conference by speaking, working on a podcast, let's do that.

K: It's again, that data-over-opinion stuff. Like, where are the audiences? Where are the therapist going right now? Yeah. And so I think a lot of people, that's the part, the marketing and the sales aspect that gets missed in the side hustle, because it's fun to create. It's just like when you get your practice and you're like, "Ah, look at my nice couch, and I decorated."

And it's... that's not... that comes at the end. That's the... you've got to be able to market first. And that's what I believe in side hustles, as well as learning how to do the marketing. There's not... it's not just how to use Facebook and stuff, but it's getting really clear on you. What sets you apart? Who you're speaking to. Where they hang out. There's research. 

ML: Yeah. Treating it like a legitimate business. 

K: Yes, and what I see, because I think, even if it's a side hustle that is only going to be bringing or that you're... you only intend to bring you a couple of hundred a month, do you want that a hundred, a couple hundred a month to be, like, you're fighting for it every month? Or do you want it to be easy? 

Yeah, I... like, I've had other side hustles, I've dropped shipped, I've done lots of other things. I have friends that are very successful in the drop-shipping business. And at the end of the day for me, I realized that there was a cost to my side hustle. It was taking time away. And if I just sold, like, two more of this over here in my normal business, my usual business, I can make up for what I was making in the side hustle. You know what I mean? And so it wasn't the kind of... you got to think, too, about your time costs. Yeah. And things like that. Yeah.

ML: This has been really fun. I've loved hearing more about your journey and also just the wisdom that you're sharing about, these little bits and pieces that you've learned along the way, parts that have been, just innate in you that you've been able to channel in this business.

What's coming up for Zynnyme, what's new and on the horizon, where people can find out more about you? I'm sure everybody that listens to me already knows all about you, but they may have colleagues that are newer to practice, or people that they went to grad school with that are newer to practice as well, and can definitely... yeah. 

K: Yeah. Zynnyme.com. You'll find all of our free trainings there. We have stuff for all phases of practice. And you can select your phase and it'll give you all the resources based on where you're at. And yeah, that's where I would start. 

And for what's on the rise, we're in the middle of opening Bootcamp right now as we speak. And we'll do that again in the fall. We have a virtual retreat coming up and that's what we're up to right now, we have another program that we do for Bootcampers. And so we're in the midst of really refining that and improving it and making it an amazing program that gets great results. So that's where our focus is right now. 

ML: Awesome. Thank you so much for your time today and just sharing, like I said, sharing your wisdom with our listeners. So it's been a really great time. 

K: It's been a pleasure. And good luck on the side hustles, guys.