Copywriting for Clinicians with Jenn Fredette

Meet Jenn Fredette, the clinician-turned-copywriter who helps you land your ideal client… and believes it’s okay to say “f*ck.”

If your idea of a therapy room still involves a white-haired man in a tweed suit, you just haven’t met Jenn Fredette yet. It is my pleasure to introduce my longtime friend in my latest podcast episode.

Jenn Fredette worked as a clinician before moving into the niche copywriting space and now offers guidance to therapists looking to rebrand themselves. Her name of the game is radical authenticity.

We love that kind of thing around here, so I have a feeling you guys are going to connect with Jenn. She’s fun, wise, and not afraid to crack a joke in session. Dream therapist, amirite?

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Full Show Notes (Transcript)…

ML: Hey, Risers. Welcome to Episode 98 of the Empathy Rising podcast. I'm really looking forward to this chat today with Jen. Jen is a former student turned friend who is just a really grounding force in my business. She's been somebody who has worked with me at every stage. Every pivot I've made, she's been right there, which has been really cool, but she's also been a sounding board.

She's somebody I go back to when I think of new offers, because she really is an ideal customer and an ideal person that I love working with and spending time with. So when I have a new idea coming up, Jen is one of the first people I reach out to and say, "Hey, can I pick your brain?" just like she often likes to pick my brain about business and growth.

Jen talks a lot today about her side hustle as a copywriting coach for clinicians, who helps clinicians really show up on their websites and attract those ideal customers in a different way that doesn't really require a lot of showmanship or visibility or social media or any of that kind of stuff.

And it's really cool to hear Jen talk about the clinical work she does and how that same depth and that same personality that she has as a clinician really shows up in her side hustle. And also some full-circle moments that she's had through the three-plus years that we have known each other and work together. So it's going to be a really cool chat and I hope you enjoy it.

Hey, Risers. I am here with just one of the most lovely people I've ever met named Jen. She is somebody I consider a good friend. And even though we sometimes go a few months without talking, I feel like when we reconnect, we always pick up right where we left off. And we've only ever met virtually, but she's somebody that I would just love when times allow to spend some in-person time with and just really hang out with.

Jen is a former student in multiple programs, and she is really getting her side hustle off the ground now. So I'm going to turn it over to her and let her introduce herself in just a moment, but I'm really excited to chat through what Jen has been able to do with her online income stream.

So Jen, if you could just do a brief introduction, tell us where you're at, and what you do clinically, and then also how you're transitioning. I don't know if you're... I don't know if you're transitioning out of clinical work, but how you're bringing on another income stream and another arm to your business.

JF: Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. And I've got to tell you all, I remember one of the first emails I got from Marissa was like, Oh, holy crap. I just learned what an ideal client was. And I am your ideal client. I sent you a really long email. So I'm delighted to be here. 

I am a licensed professional counselor practicing just outside of Baltimore now, but in the DC-Baltimore area, I still see clients. I'm not going to stop seeing clients. We were just talking a little bit before we hit record, and I'm pregnant with my first, so of course I'll go on maternity leave. And part of that has encouraged me to be like, Okay, I know I'm going to want more time to be able to be at home to have more flexibility.

I don't want to give up clients. But wanting more out of my business and my life. So we'll talk about where I'm moving in my side hustle in a minute, but I still see a lot of, gosh, I see 23 people a week. Hopefully cutting down of the next few months, starting to get some attrition, but I love working with deep thinkers who often have some anxious of weight and attachment who have a lot of deep feelings, but they don't always know how to access them.

So that's what I do clinically. And I am young and oriented. I love attachment theory. I use a lot of psychodynamic relational psychodynamic with my clients. Yes, which is my favorite. Yes, and I loved getting to do long-term work, especially with clients. So part of what I'm doing in the side hustle, and we can talk some about the journey of how I've gotten here and starting to offer to clinicians. 

Here's how I was able to build a very successful practice actually very quickly, especially for the kinds of clients I want to see. I'm not doing short-term work, that it's easy to get people in the door of a premium, full-fee practice. I charged $25 an hour. And how did I get people into a place? My practice is pretty systematized. The only thing I do now is write notes and hit the charge button on my Ivy pay. And that's it. 

ML: So cool. 

JF: Yeah. 

ML: Awesome. So yeah, let's take a look at that. So you've got 23 clients a week going on, maternity leave... have you... do you anticipate coming back to 23 clients a week? Do you want to cut that down?

JF: Ideally. I would like to cut it down. I think part of what's hard is I don't want to tell anybody that they have to go. Most of my people want to come back, but out of those 23 clinical hours a week, three of them, I see twice a week. And so I'm not going to offer that when I come back from maternity leave, I mentioned to see everybody every other week.

ML: Okay. 

JF: Which, clinically, feels a little weird to me, 'cause I'm used to seeing people weekly. 

ML: Yeah. 

JF: But that will cut it down to only 10 people a week. 

ML: Okay. Yeah. And then is your plan to compensate for that revenue with your side hustle? Do you want to just build up to what you were making with weekly clients? Or do you want to surpass that with your hustle? 

JF: Oh, I always want to surpass it. Yeah. That's how I roll. And I think by the start of 2022, I'll be back to full-time clinical practice, but hopefully they will have had some attrition. And that's my anticipation. I have some people moving. Some people probably getting ready to finish up.

ML: Yeah. 

JF: But we'll see what maternity,... I don't know for your listeners who are seeing people clinically, it kicks up a lot of really interesting material of what they project and how clients are feeling about being left for 10 or 12 weeks without any access to me. So that feels really weighty, but in terms of revenue, I really want to get to the point that this can help replace both clinical revenue, that I'd only have to take clients that I really want to see. And this is another piece that's not necessarily based in revenue. 

And I think you and I can relate to this, and I don't mean any shade on any of your listeners, but therapists really suck at marketing. And even as I'm like looking for referrals for either people to cover me, you're like, These people are moving. I'm just like, "Oh my God, like, guys, what are you doing?" And so part of the impetus of the side hustle, it was... I really want more people to be able to go in, find the right therapist, and be able to see right off the bat that this is the person for me.

And so much copy, the written material that the therapist put out there, is just... generic. It's planned. It's unclear who they're really good at working with. And my assumption is, they're good therapists. I think most people like the therapist. Oh, that reminds me of a story. I'm going to put a little mental mark, 'cause I want to come back to that.

ML: Keep going. 

JF: Oh yeah. Yeah. So part of the impetus of this over the past couple of years, it's just I want people to have better marketing, not just so therapists can build the practice that they really want and see the clients they really want, and not have to just take whoever calls or have to take insurance if they don't want to take insurance, but I really want my clients to be able to find good people and to know, Oh, this person says speaks in my language, not just as offering me brainspotting or EMDR. And I hate that because of trauma, because most consumers are not educated about what the action--they don't really, they don't really care what modality is. 

They just built... I always use this example: They'll stand on their head and stick out their tongue, if they believe it's going to help them. Like, they don't care what the modality is. They need to believe in you. They need to trust that you can help them with what they're suffering with.

ML: Yeah. I love when you say, like, therapists are bad marketers, because I flip it on its head a little bit, and I say, therapists make the best marketers when they know what they're doing. And we're actually going through this lesson right now, in Side Hustle. So it's really pertinent for me. 

JF: Therapists know people. They know people better than any other industry out there. That's literally what we do for a living, is know and speak with people. And when you reframe to use a clinical word when you agree, say, marketing is communicating to people, it all of a sudden becomes very different. 

And I use this example a lot too, but I say, I'd put a Harvard MBA up against a therapist to create, like, an ideal customer avatar or a client narrative any day, because this MBA is going to know the strategic approach, but this clinician is going to know the human approach. So really, it's just about repurposing your clinical skills in a business way and having the know-how and the guidance to do that. 

ML: Yeah. 

JF: And even to take that a step further, I think sometimes that's also where therapists get stuck, which is why I'm so glad you exist. And all of the things you do exist is that the advice that you're going to get from the Harvard MBA, who isn't the expert in marketing or whoever it might be, they're not tapping into the skills you actually have. And what they're offering you, if you try to mimic what the experts say to do, doesn't actually then tap into all of the meat and all of the even unconscious data that you have about what's going on for clients. So it really keeps them up at 3:00 AM because they will literally tell you in your intake, the session, like, I can't see here's what's rolling through my mind.

ML: Yeah. 

JF: Which makes beautiful copy. Take it in a way that still feels like you're respecting their privacy and, of course, not violating HIPAA. But I think sometimes therapists just don't know, and so then they try to fit themselves into boxes that were never really meant for them. Like, the strategies are helpful if you know what they are, but you still need to glean your own voice and your own insight.

ML: Yeah, let's put a pin in that because I want to come back to a lot of this how-to stuff. But before we jump in there, like, the thing that I was listening to when you were talking before about, Do you want to shrink your caseload and is it about revenue? And you're like, Yes. Or Yes, but... and what I really hear from you is a calling, right? Like, you really want to improve or to help guide people in the mental health industry. You want to make sure clients are finding the right therapist and that therapists are communicating their skills. And there's a passion here and something deeper than, just making revenue, which I think is important, especially when you go through like a burnout or when you go through a lull where there isn't a lot of revenue.

JF: A lot of times that could be like, All right. We'll find it's not working, but having that connection to the purpose behind, or the reason behind can really help you see why you got into a Side Hustle in the first place. So I really love that. You're putting that message out there. A lot of times I am talking about revenue. A lot of times I am talking about shrinking down your caseload or creating more space in your life, but having a purpose behind things is important too. So yeah. Yeah. 

I think at least for me, we've known each other a while and you've seen me go through a variety of iterations, having something that feels meaningful and deep is the only way I'm going to actually like stick with it. And I can hang with strategy and run my revenue numbers. I was talking to my accountant the other day. I was like, "Okay. And this is what I think is going to happen. And what are we doing about quarterly taxes? And things like that."

And I think that's why most people get into therapy in general: that we have a sense either calling vocation, or at least for me, like a deep need to try to understand my really screwed-up childhood and let me make sense of what happens there. I'll do it through education, do it through therapy.

I will learn relationally from my clients. Even as I get to sit and be with them and help them learn about themselves and those around them. And so this feels like an extension. It feels much more integrated than anything I've done thus far. 

ML: Yeah. So let's dive into our history and what you've taken from our work together and how that has led you to the Side Hustle. And then we'll get into kind of your tips and things that you want to teach us today. 

JF: So we've known each other for a long time. We both said that. And so we first met during Holiday Happy Hour, which was my summit that kind of launched my business. I've shared about this before, but I did not launch a program right off of the summit.

You can use the summit as an audience builder, or you can use it as a launch mechanism. Most people are going to use it as a launch mechanism because you've got a captive audience. So why not go for the sale? I didn't do that. I only went for, like, audience building, but something that was happening behind the scenes that a lot of people didn't see is I was full for one-on-one for six months that I had that event in November and December of... what? 2017. Yeah. Yes. And then 2018, I was full to June 2018 through one-on-one work because people were emailing me: "I just watched last night's Holiday Happy Hour. Can I work with you?" So it... it definitely brought revenue into my business. I just didn't launch a program. So that I think is when we started talking was before I launched the program and then come March, I was like, Oh man, I'm full with one-on-one.

I can't do one because Logan was... my baby was only six months old at that time. She's turning four next week. So it gives you a picture of how long ago this was, but in March of that year, so it was right around her first birthday, I was like, I know one-on-one is not what I want to be doing long-term, and so I launched a program called Cathartic Marketing.

And I don't... were you in the first round of Cathartic Marketing? 

ML: I was in the first many of the first rounds. Yes. 

JF: Yeah. So then you were in the first round of Cathartic Marketing. And what Cathartic Marketing was? The first round was niching. Brand voice, and how to write a blog, and how to write, how to post on social media.

So a little bit of online marketing, and a little bit of, like, ideal customer branding, which is interesting, because those lessons from cathartic marketing have evolved and evolved and they show up inside Side Hustle. But that was the very first thing I ever put on the market. 

ML: So can you talk a little bit about, like, why did you purchase Cathartic Marketing? What did you get from the Cathartic Marketing? Because I think that program has had more of the impact on your side hustle then even Side Hustle did. 

JF: Yeah. It was telling you before we hit record, like, "Marissa, if you would still offer this, I would... we'd be doing something different." Not that I'm not... that what I'm doing is Cathartic Marketing, but very much inspired by. 

So for those of you who were getting ready to launch or doing summits, I want you to know that I am somebody who invests regularly and I am always close-of-cart buyer. So I want to give you lots of hugs. There are lots of people like me who love you and be like ideal clients who are not going to hit the button until the very last day.

Only two hours left. The cart is closing. You have to die. And I love it. And I remember I signed up for a Holiday Happy Hour. That was it. So it was working at a group practice. I worked there for about a year. I made crap. I did not make good. They talked me into being clinical director. I should not have been clinical director. And so I was working with another coach who was like, You've got to go out on your own. 

ML: Yeah. 

JF: And it was like, I don't know, like, maybe in June, she was like, "No, in January." This was in November. I was like, "All I got to do all the private practice stuff immediately." So I signed up for a Holiday Happy Hour.

ML: I was like, "Give her a bunch of, like, free offerings."

JF: Yeah. And then did nothing with them. They just crowded my inbox. But because I did that, I was on your list. I was on a ton of people's lists. Amber Lyda. I don't remember who else did Holiday Happy Hour with you. And I slowly started to unsubscribe in January and February. I'm like, Ah, this isn't helpful, but your emails always were. Thank you. I would read your emails. 

I'm like, "Okay, the cell phone, I'm not going to do this blog thing. I'm trying to do workshops at the time." Like, "I will build my practice through workshops, which I hated, and I did not enjoy doing." But the day, it's actually my birthday, the cart closed on Cathartic Marketing. And I was like, Oh, that's a lot of money. I don't know. Can I do it? 

And I was just like, "My gut says this is what I have to do next. I love to write. Fucking hate networking. I do not want to go on coffee dates. I do not want to have to go out and do stuff. I just want to be able to do it at home.: I was like, "I think this is what I have to do."

And you used a lot of language that was really appealing to me. Other, even though they were clinicians, private practice coaches, weren't using clinical language. And you were, I was like, Okay, this person I think is going to get me. I'm going to do this thing. It's really scary. I'm not going to do it. And this is what I'm going to do.

And so I bought it and we started and I went on vacation during Cathartic Marketing, but I was still like, I'm going to make all of this work. And I had read, like, some Seth Godin. I had read Lynn Gretzky's "Building a Private Practice" before all of this, but you were the first person who took marketing in a way that it was like, Oh, actually just, like, what you're talking about before, I could be a really good marketer. Like, I have all of the skills. Here's how I'm going to translate it. Here's how I'm going to start to build the kind of practice I really want. 

And I remember writing you a new testimonial because you've made me hundreds of thousands of dollars with helping me rewrite my psych today profil. There was a great line I still have clients quote to me. I've been occasionally... I've changed it since, because my ICA has changed over time, but there was something like, You are a young professional who lives balls to the walls. Yeah. That was your line. I was like, "That's great." Most of "Can I have it?" Just you're like, "Sure, sure, sure." And that kind of language, being able to speak to a population that a lot of people told me wouldn't be able to afford. 

I was charging $200. Then you're like, ah, I don't know, like, dudes in $25, $26. I can't afford $200 an hour. Yeah, they sure as hell can. I built my practice and had my first six-figure here. And I didn't even actually have a full 12 months. That was, like, mid-February through January. I made... I guess it wasn't technically six figures. $99,000.

ML: Yeah. Let's call it. 

JF: Yeah, that's how we started. And then I was all of a sudden in trance. "Oh, this is so fun. I'm good at this. I want to do more. I want to do more." I rewrote my website. Actually just recently rebranded and rewrote it.

But had a really amazing website that I loved, started working with clients that I really enjoyed and, again, even in a more the depth-oriented community, that's not generally who you're marketing towards, right? Like, twenty-five-year-old dudes who are doing cocaine at the parties, or maybe not people who can do depth with you. 

ML: Yeah. 

JF: My guys could, and I loved working with them. And as I've gotten older, there's been other kinds of people I've wanted to work with. And so I've been able to switch my branding. 

ML: Yeah, I did Cathartic Marketing with you. I talked you into some one-on-one when you finally work booked that summer. And I'm trying to remember what happened next. I think you did Side Hustle the following year. 

JF: Yeah. 

ML: The story that I was like, I want to put it, I want to come back to the story was: you asked me it was around this like balls-to-the-wall thing. And I don't remember if it was during Cathartic Marketing or during our one-on-one, but you were like, "Marissa, can I say 'fuck' on my website?" And I was like, "100%, like, if your ideal customer, what will resonate with the word? Fuck. Put it on every other page. Put it on the page 15 times.

And I remember later, you posted it. You're like, "My website's done," and you posted it in the Empathy Rising group. And you got some flack from clinicians saying, "I can't believe you're talking like this on your website. This is inappropriate. This isn't therapy. And you and I messaged back and forth and you were like, 'I'm really, like, hurt by this and all this stuff.'

And I was like, 'I'm going to say something because I was like, 'You guys, Jen is full with ideal clients. Jen is full in a private, pay-high-fee practice with ideal clients because she talks authentically because this is her." 

There's this sweet spot that we talk about, the sweet spot between your marketing and what your ideal customer client needs. And you hit that sweet spot on the head and it worked for you and it worked quickly. 

JF: Yes. And that person actually threatened to call my board and, like, I talked about it in therapy, turns out. For those of you who are thinking about putting "fuck" on your website, that is not a board-worthy thing, at least in the state of Virginia.

And, like, it hit my own sort of anxiety and it can tell you more. The fact that I swear on my website and I still do. And it's actually a pretty different ICA than who I started with. It evolved, like you were talking about Cathartic Marketing, that there's a lot of elements that have remained the same, but it's changed over time.

I still curse. I curse like a motherfucker in session and out of it. And that's something that I often will hear clients say to me like, "Oh, okay. It felt like you spoke my language, like you weren't going to judge me." There was something really rapport-building about that. And it's also something, I don't know if this is true in other markets, but I don't know anybody else who swears in psych today in my general area.

And I occasionally scroll just to be like, What's going on? How are people marketing? Yeah, and I am still always a little baffled by it. I know so many therapists who swear and it's never in any of their marketing. 

I think the other thing that you helped me with that is my authentic voices. Fritz Perls was, like, one of my favorite, like, he is who I chose when we watched the Gloria Tapes and theories. And so having a little bit more of a punchy voice compared to the very soft and soothing and gentle, and [unintelligle], blah, blah, blah. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And I am, I think, a pretty gentle and warm person, but I can have some punch, and that tends to resonate because, again, therapists just don't go there because they're scared of, I think, of hurting clients. If you... yeah, I also think there's the perception, right? Like, I think we're coming out of this. I think the industry is coming out of this, but like the therapist is the old white dude who wears the tweed jacket.

There's still that persona that's out there or I still think of the middle-aged white woman who wears the cardigan, right? There's these two kind of, like, archetypes, or like, what's portrayed on media, and these kinds of things. And so I think there's still this like professionalism.

ML: Do you know Cody? Cody Higgs. 

JF: Yeah. 

ML: So he was in Side Hustle and his whole thing was, he was working on punk rock practice because he, like, wears band t-shirts. And these aren't, like, like, AC/DC shirts. These are, like, I don't even know the names of these bands, but, like, scary Gary music to me. 

But he, like, is using language like that in his practice and things like that. And so I do think that there are many clinicians who are busting out of this, but there's almost this permission piece that they might still want or still crave or still need of what is professionalism.

JF: It's okay. I think authenticity trumps professionalism any day. So whoever you are and bringing that to your marketing, whether you're marketing your practice or whether you're marketing your side hustle, that is the most important thing. 

ML: Yeah. And with you, and I think too, I've been thinking a lot about defense mechanisms and how they show up in copy lately. And I think in particular, in fact my supervisor, my consultant, I was talking about this recently. That some of that objectivity, whether it's the Melfi or the Freud, let me hold myself back. 

It has a lot more to do with fear than it does, actually, with clinical appropriateness, than it is about withholding, and sometimes in our marketing that has a lot to do with how we're working through how we want to be seen, what personas we choose to wear. 

And the persona in therapy land for a really long time has been neutral blank effect when actually there's a lot going on. And there's a lot of value in sharing. 

JF: It's still mediated in terms of self-disclosure, and if I'm remembering correctly, Cody specializes, like, in teenagers, teenage girls.

ML: Yeah. And has has the practice that I'm, "Ah, Cody, I need to have a better... you have a really good schedule. I need to schedule like that." Sees them during the day, doesn't offer a lot of afternoon or weekends, which most people who see adolescents, really, you don't do that. That's not possible.

JF: It absolutely is possible. When you have marketing, that's going to resonate that people know that you're going to get them. And that's what his teen girls get and their parents get too. 

ML: Yeah. 

JF: So I think sometimes we say that we're trying to be like a good therapist or we want to fit into the old mold, but that's just us hiding from who we are, what our voice has to sound, what we have to offer.

ML: Wow. And that's... it's funny. I was going to say that's really profound and "profound" is one of your words that you use a lot. So you were in the first round of Cathartic Marketing, and then you were also in the first round of Side Hustle, which was my experiment round. 

And I'm very honest with the way that my programs grow and evolve, even that first round of cart, Cathartic Marketing by the end of Cathartic Marketing, it went from a sixweek program to a ten-week program.

I added in website writing. I added in SEO and keywords and things like that into Cathartic Marketing that weren't there in the first round. 

And then in the first round of Side Hustle, what I think is really interesting is you were actually one of my validation interviews, which is something that I teach in Side Hustle, where you come up with a concept, but we don't sell our concept. We take our concept to the marketplace. We don't create our concept. 

That's one mistake that a lot of people make, is they get an idea for a course, and then they go build the course building. The course should be the very last thing you do. And the course that you build is not, should not be the same as the concept that you had.

So I had this concept. And I asked you if you wanted to do a validation interview and you were my validation interview for Side Hustle. You helped me, like, you're like, "Yeah, I want more of that. I think I could do without this. This would be great. This would be great." By the end of that call, you ended up saying, "Send me a link. I want to join." And so you not only, like, in the first version of a Side Hustle, you were the first person who even invested in Side Hustle. 

JF: And I got to tell you, since I've been around the block for a little bit longer now, I remember we talked about pricing in that interview, and I was like, "Yeah, I think about this much, in retrospect, I think I would have paid double.”

Even though I was not a success story. I had too many other things going on. The material was amazing, but, in retrospect, the amount of what you offered is insane. And we were just talking, and were like, "It's a nine-month program now. I'm like, "Okay. That makes more sense." 'Cause there was so much and it was so rich and I, I only made it through three months before it's: "I'm buying a house. Like, I can't keep up."

And again, that wasn't you. I think everybody else kept up and were able to launch a lot of people launch. So in the six-month version, most people were launching within three to six months after.

ML: And yes, you're exactly right. There was. It's so rich. I've the program has changed. It's so different. I was going to say a 180, but it's almost so different. It's like a full three... like, it's a different program. But running it helped me realize that I was... I ran it as a teaching program, not as an implementation program. And that is something that I have changed 100%.

Yes, all this knowledge is here. But the knowledge is much less important than you actually doing the work while I am here to guide you through the work. 

JF: Yeah. 

ML: And so that was something that I learned 100% from that first round was I was teaching everything I could in pouring all of this knowledge on you guys, and then being like, "Okay, bye, go do it." And it doesn't work that way. And so now, not that I hold any knowledge back, I still share everything, but I'm much more assertive in the: "Have you guys done this yet? Is this done? Show me your work, show me your work." And I've gotten even more directive as the rounds have gone, which felt very different for me because I like to go deep with things.

And I like to take things like the richness that you said. Like, that's me. And so each round getting more directive has... it's been like, am I losing that? But I don't think I do. I may lose the richness a little bit. The beautiful conversations, the organic conversations that I like to have, because I am like, Is it done?

But at the same time, those things happen behind the scenes now, or they happen in different arenas now, whereas the students are getting the results in the course room. Yeah, but you don't know those things, you don't know those things until you run your program. 

JF: Yeah.
ML: Yeah. And so we chuckled 'cause you're like, "I was not a success story." I like... for me, I'm, like, I wasn't delivering the program the best I could. 

You had things going on in your life that I think... what I just remembered again was, like, you were talking, we were talking about, like, modules for your program and you were like, "I want it to feel like a house." And, like, they walk in the front door of the house and this, and I'm like, "I'm just like going with you there in concept.

And then in the back of my mind, I'm like, "How the hell are we going to say yes?" I got to tell you, and this is not what I'm launching this year, but one of the things that I am launching that actually feels closest to what I was trying to incubate in Side Hustle was that I wanted people to have some sort of access to depth.

And I think particularly after 2020, like, our world is calling out for more and more of that. And you always have access to even know that it's an option. I know, even for me, discovering that therapy was a thing. And it was not just a thing that you could go and solve a problem or go in the door and be like, "Okay, I'm really anxious. Give me, like, CBT steps and then I'll be okay."

But there would be a lot of room to explore who you are, what your... who your psyche is. All of these pieces was magical. Part of that was finding the right therapist. And so I'm working on all of this stuff right now to help therapists increase their marketing, be able to build a practice that is not only authentic to them, but really speaks and actually offers service into the world, which is another thing we talked about in Cathartic Marketing, that marketing is something you offer to people who can't necessarily afford your fee or because of licensure can't come and see you. This is a service that you have to offer. You're sharing your knowledge with the world. 

JF: And so that's this year's goal, but next year I'm going to do just a small SLO, a self-liquidating funnel on my therapy practice site. And it's going to be a roadmap to find your dream therapist. Here's how you start to discern. Here's how you decipher all the chart in. We still use... here's how you start to self-assess, like, this is what I need. 

ML: Yeah. So you started off with a B2C idea, business-to-consumer idea of, I want to help you get more depth out of your life. And then it was like, Ah, it's there, but it's not there. So it was like, Oh, where can I go? Or where am I called to? 

JF: It still was about this depth. And then it was, like, depth that I've experienced in my life, depth that I have access to came from being in therapy. It's important for me to make sure that the right clinician or the right clients find the right clinicians, the right... the clinicians know how to put them out themselves out there so that they're making these matches.

ML: So it became a B2B offer. 

JF: Yes. Yes. Now you're talking about again, circling back to B2C, but what's lovely, for lack of better word, so lovely about it is there's a common thread here. There is a uniting factor and the uniting factor is depth. The uniting factor is authenticity. Whether it's clinician helping clinicians market authentically to attract the right people for them. 

And that doesn't mean that their ideal client is the same as your ideal client. It's tapping into a process that allows them to put themselves out there in a way that feels good. They might not say "fuck" on their website. That's totally cool. But they have a voice that is them that is bringing them the right client for them.

ML: Yes. And then now circle bringing it again, full circle back to now, this depth comes to the next piece where it's helping the client know how to advocate for themselves, know how to find the provider that's right for themselves. 

JF: Yes. And in some ways where I was, when I was in Side Hustle was I was wanting to be ten years down the road and I am not there yet. And so being able to step back and be like, "Okay, I still want to get to this murky... enter into this house and let's explore all of these assets and features. That's not where I am right now." Like, it's about laying the foundation and a huge part of that is I think. And we've talked a little bit about this in the past.

I think it actually is really difficult to market depth in a way that is appealing and that helps people understand this is something actually you really do need, because people aren't always in the crisis mode that... to go back to Cody, like, "My teenager, I think they're cutting. Like, I'm really concerned."

Like, I don't actually know if that's Cody's ICA or not, but there's more crisis. And what do you do if you want to market to people who aren't in crisis, but who want to make a long-term commitment to relationship to understand who they are? I have a couple of people right now, and one of them often will say to me and say, "I'm so intrigued by that. I am so intrigued, Jen, that you, I don't know, come up with some random thing that I say to him. And when I rewrote my website in its current iteration, I thought a lot about how the only reason this person came to see me was because their partner was, like, 'You have to go to therapy."

So when I was rewriting my website for this current round, which I finished right before COVID hit, I was thinking about a couple of different clients, which is another method that you taught me and was really holding that I have a client who. I'm still not always entirely sure how or why he's in therapy.

I am clear that he needs to be, and that there's a lot to explore, but he'll often at the end of session, like, "I was really intrigued by that." That's a way we should go deeper down that rabbit trail or whatever it might be. This is the person who's high-functioning who didn't have a crisis, per se, to lead them to therapy. And that can be challenging. 

I think sometimes for therapists, because when we talk about pain points, we're often talking about amplification of symptoms or core problems of, like, how do you reach somebody who's deeply depressed? Or how do you reach somebody who is really acting out in certain ways? And that's can be really lovely to work with if those are your people.

I knew that I didn't want to keep working with people who were in consistent crisis or even coming to me because of crisis. I'm wanting people to come because they wanted to explore their own depth. And so that's one of the things that I've really learned over the past year and a half is, "How do you write copy? How do you market to people who don't need you, per se, but want to do this kind of work?"

That's incredible because, like, when I'm thinking about that, I'm often like, "Oh, go back to Maslow." And you're talking to people who maybe want to like self-actualize. And when I think about that, I almost of course see a pyramid in my head and I'm like, Oh, they're, self-actualizing, they're ascending up to this.

But when you're saying explore their own depth, doesn't necessarily take me down, but it takes me wide. It's expansive. I'm not seeing them go up. I'm seeing them almost like expanding. Yeah. It's really interesting. It fascinates me how a choice of words can have a totally different connotation.

And that's really what you're talking about. Part of it, like where I went... like, I'm always wary. I have a lot of personality disorder in my family of origin that I don't want to get anywhere close to narcissism. And so that self-actualization that kind of... it's tricky then. Who are you actually bringing in?

And so it's about having a lot of clinical awareness of here's, how people who want grounded depths, which is expensive and is very much like exploring the land of the psyche, versus who's trying to climb the ladder to self-transformation, which... I think, actually, when I look at a lot of coaches not necessarily in your space, but just in general, I'm like, Oh, okay. That's what you guys are selling is here's how we get to that magical. I am so spiritually or morally or whatever developed, and that's not generally, I think, how self-actualization actually happens. It actually becomes... this is my theory about it. 

Anyways, it's a circle more than a pyramid that who we are at our core, like that beautiful defined piece of us. We only get there as we work through all the other stuff. When we have to continue to work through the others. Staff and a lot of high-functioning people really struggle with good self-care. You've worked with a lot of entrepreneurs. I struggle with self-care, like, raising my hand. 

ML: Oh yeah. 

JF: I made myself watch TV the other night. I was like, I have to sit down and watch Ginny and Georgia. Like I have to sit down and watch an episode of TV. I can not just keep reading about TV so I can keep up with my clients. I have to do some self-care. And I think that is often the block. Then our ambition gets in the way of us actually being able to do that deep work that we want to do. It doesn't work the way, like ,building revenue or building a business necessarily works.

ML: Yeah. So are you doing this depth of marketing on the ground? I love when you said grounded depth, grounded marketing. Are you doing this one-on-one with people? Are you doing this in a program? 

JF: So I'm going to do it in a program. Not that I don't like one-on-one. I've done for the past year to 18 months. I've helped people with their websites, not anybody's writer in part, because my voice is too strong and it's hard for me to check my voice and not just turn people's copy into my copy. Not write beautiful copy, but it's... it then doesn't belong to you. 

Yeah, so I've done some one-on-one coaching this past year and am distilling. These have been essentially paid validation. I'm distilling that into, Here's how you, as a therapist, marketer, can write copy that is not only going to resonate with your ideal client, and how do you figure out who your ideal client is? But also, Here's how you write copy that lets you tap into your own voice and be able to speak the things that you might be thinking in session, but aren't appropriate necessarily to stay in session and the client's not ready for them yet. 

So I'm the program's attunement distilled. I'm getting ready to launch it at the end of March 2021. 

ML: Oh, I love, I even just love the title. Yeah. I love it. Where can people who are looking at for this either they might want to revamp their practice marketing, or they're building their side hustles, but want to make sure that they're really getting their voice and making sure that is showing up when they are doing their side hustle, marketing, where can people find you?

JF: So they can find me in all sorts of places. If there are people who are like, "I don't have time for small talk. I just want to cut straight to the chase." They can go to athinkersguide.com/attune, and there's going to be the copy treatment plan, workshop that they can watch. If you, who is more like me, and it's going to be like, I want to explore a little bit.

I want her. See, all the things you have, you can certainly go to my website at athinkersguide.com. You could check me out. 

And Instagram is probably where I'm most, I don't know, active. I go back and forth. I'm not always the best social media person, but trying to be better about it. And then I also have a free treat for all of your listeners.

They can go to athinkersguide.com/diagnosis, which gives them a chance to start to really do some self-assessment, to determine what is actually getting in your way of writing copy that is not only authentic, but is captivating for your ideal client. 

ML: Yeah. Oh, I feel like this episode has just been captivating, and enthralled. This whole conversation and just your vernacular, your vocabulary. You take me to a different place with the words that you use. So you're like a walking advertisement for your business, just because you use a voice and it draws me in. 

And like I said earlier, the people who work with you, you might not have the same voice as Jen, but what Jen can teach you is to do what she does in the sense of using these words that are going to bring the right people to you.

And it's just... it's fascinating for me. Thank you so much for spending your time with me. And like I'm in this like energetic high right now. 

JF: Thank you for having me. It's always so fun to get to come hang out with you. 

ML: Awesome. Check out the nine-month version. Since you have lifetime access, you can see all the new cars. There's tons, that's new in there. 

JF: This is what I'm doing. I'm going to have my Starbucks and, "Oh, where are all these things at Marissa still needs to teach me that I did not take in all the way the first time?" 

ML: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here and sharing your just wealth of knowledge or richness with us. And I think that it's been a lovely morning, so thank you. 

JF: You're welcome.

ML: All right. I loved that episode. Jen just has this vocabulary. She uses these words that I just... they move me. She moves me when she speaks and she moves others when she writes. And that has been the success of her practice marketing as well as her side hustle: marketing. Be sure to head over and check out Jen, if this is something that you want to learn, how to do for yourself to really speak with that authentic voice, to use it, to attract the right type of people to you through just really.

I already said authentic, but it just is an authentic marketing style. Jen is the go-to for helping you just really not only find your voice, but put your voice out there. So I hope you've enjoyed listening to us chat today. And that it has inspired you to show up just a little bit more like you in everything you do for your side hustle.

All right, guys, I will be talking with you next week, and until then, keep on rising.

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