Summer Coaching Series: How to Lean Into Your Side Hustle Identity

How do you distinguish yourself from other entrepreneurs?

We're talking about growing into your side hustle in the latest summer coaching series episode and we’ll be discussing creative identity, the ability to use our creative brains and hands in a way that makes sense for you—a way that lets you express yourself fully and freely while embracing your entrepreneurial identity outside the therapy room.

Learn about the difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur and how to embody the one that fits you best in this week's episode

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Show Notes:

Hey Risers ,we are back with our next episode of our summer coaching series, which makes episode 163 on the podcast.  Today, we're talking with Sarah who is an LCSW in Texas, and she also owns a group practice with her husband. Who's an LPC, which I thought was a really cool dynamic, and fun. And so we explored that a little but Sarah's episode, I think has some really great takeaways for us to dive into. And as we're talking through those, my hope is that they spark for you. They inspire you and maybe they answer some of the questions that you've been having. So Sarah is somebody, who is, has already built her side hustle.

So she is coming to me with a concept already formed. We of course, go into that. And I show her some places where she could tighten it up or some places for some suggestions, but she's already started working on stuff. So even if you have already have your offer together, We can still do some stuff and make it even better.

But what I love about Sarah's episode is that she's created this low touch offer that is going to give her some flexibility. And what we're really looking into in this episode is some identity formation. We talk about the difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur identity. And what does that mean and how does that carry over?

And we also talk about a creative identity, the ability to use our creative brains and our creative minds, our creative hands in a different way that we might not be able to do when we're in session all day, every day. So I hope that there is some good stuff in here for you. Of course, we talk about the tangibles too -  some strategies and some time management and some marketing.

You guys hear that from me all the time, but what I thought was fun here with Sarah, especially is some of the softer stuff, some of the identity and creativity pieces. So I hope that you get some stuff for you that's that applies to what you need from my chat with Sarah today.

Marissa: Hey Risers. Welcome back to another coaching episode for our coaching summer series. I am here with Sarah Robinson and we are going to be just diving into whatever she needs help with today. Hopefully by hearing her questions, it'll help spark some stuff for you guys. And if you Are inspired after this episode and have questions of your own head on over to the Facebook group don't hesitate to drop them there. And we can certainly talk about them. I can answer anything that you tag me. So hopefully this coaching episode, isn't only helpful for Sarah today. It's helpful for all of you listeners. So Sarah, if you could just introduce yourself briefly, tell us a little bit about maybe your license, where you live, what you do clinically. And then we'll dive into what you are looking for from a side hustle and what you're thinking about about trying something besides therapy. 

Sarah: Absolutely. So happy to be here too. I'm looking forward to this. Yay. Yeah, I'm Sarah Robinson. I am a licensed clinical social worker supervisor, and I co-own a group practice with my husband.

Marissa: Cool. 

Sarah: Who is an LPC? We are working in the Austin area in town called round rock just north of, in Texas. And yeah,

Marissa: We were we were stationed in Colleen, so I know all about, Georgetown round rock, all that.

Sarah: Yes. Yes. We have had that group practice for a couple of years now. We opened it up during the pandemic, which was strange, but it worked out.

Sarah: Yeah. We love that. So we specialize in anxiety, depression, trauma. We've both worked in hospitals and crisis settings for a long time. So we look at it through that. 

Marissa: Were you always planning to go into private practice or did the pandemic kind of spur that for you or did it just happen to be like coincidental timing?

Sarah: A little bit of all of it. I was I loved where I was working. I, so I had a child at 20, in 2019. Yeah. And then we were dipping our toe into just private practice on the side. And then he was doing his thing and I was doing mine separately. And we were like, why can't we just join together? That might be simpler. And it just so happened that rolled in that direction. But I don't know that it was our, we always laugh that we had a five year plan and it got sped up into a year or two. 

[00:05:25] Marissa: Totally. 

[00:05:26] Sarah: So I don't know. It just feels like we've just been following the ball forward. Yeah. 

[00:05:30] Marissa: How has entrepreneurship been for you? Is it something you like always knew you wanted or has it been a journey.

[00:05:37] Sarah: Definitely not, I don't think I would've identified myself as an entrepreneur. Yeah. Even, even now I was thinking about that recently. I was like, I never introduced myself that way.

[00:05:47] Marissa: Yeah. 

[00:05:47] Sarah: Ever. And I'm definitely doing that, but yeah. I don't know myself that way yet. 

[00:05:52] Marissa: And I think there's a difference, at least in my mind between, oh, I'm a business owner and I'm an entrepreneur. Cuz for some reason, entrepreneur still tied up in hustle culture for me and striving and wanting more.

[00:06:03] Marissa: And the next idea, which is awesome. There's something wrong with that. But also like business owner to me, yeah, I own a business, but it's not that. It doesn't have that hustle connotation to me. So sometimes I lean more into business owner than I do entrepreneur. Yeah. I think that's relatable for me too. Yeah. So what are you thinking now that you've got your group practice up and running? What are you thinking about kind of additional income streams, or why are you interested in some sort of side hustle? 

[00:06:31] Sarah: So I actually have created one. But I don't know what I really want to help. Pick your brain on how to take it in the next step and really also understand effective marketing and what that looks like now. I think it's changed a lot in a little, the last little bit of time, also, for sure but as an entrepreneur with a side hustle, I just, it's totally different for me. But right around the same time that we launched our group practice, we were just really excited with how well that went, that I got really passionate about this idea of creating.

[00:07:07] Sarah: I don't know if you're familiar with the Enneagrams , but making Enneagram nspired things for therapists and coaches and clients, so that I'm not creating engram therapy, but just worksheets that you can take in oh yeah into your session and just very practical things. Cuz I love using that with my clients, in addition to some other things and everybody introduced to it in that setting also loves it and it's a game changer for them. So I had this idea got really excited about. And then over the last two years, very up and down rollercoaster of yeah. I'm in it and I'm making it and then I have to totally take a break and I got burned out.

[00:07:44] Marissa: So are you creating like the worksheets yourself and designing those and that kind of stuff? The whole thing? 

[00:07:50] Sarah: Yep. I did have a friend who is helping me yeah. Create the brand and the website and all of that. But the rest of it, just all me . 

[00:07:57] Marissa: Is that the piece that you find really fun, like the creation piece or is all of it fun? The marketing and the selling and all of that, 

[00:08:06] Sarah: I guess if you compare those two buckets that you just mentioned. Yeah. The creating is more fun. The marketing really intimidates me. Especially. If the best way to market is this idea of something new every day, this new take.

[00:08:22] Sarah: I see a lot of people doing that and I appreciate it. And I just don't know if I have a new thing every day. Yeah. I may be overthinking it, but I'm stuck there. So I've just been hunkered down in the excitement of the creating and the talking about it. But for sure. Wanting to perfect it yeah, and really going through a journey with that.

[00:08:41] Marissa: And I think we'll get to this cuz I don't wanna, I don't wanna go there quite yet, but we can bring creative energy into marketing and selling and we can certainly talk about that. But it's love that when I start talking about to people who are like starting the side hustle journey. And it's like, why did you jump into this? And it's, there's a few things that stand out sometimes it's, oh, I wanted more autonomy. I wanted to call my own shots, that kind of thing. Or, money wise, I wanted, I wanna be able to scale. I wanna be able to make money without exchanging my time, or I want something more creative, because we can go out and we can learn a new modality or we can get certified in this or whatever.

[00:09:20] Marissa: That takes a lot of time and sometimes you just wanna use a creative brain or use your brain differently, which is something that I'm picking up from you. Is that correct? 

[00:09:30] Sarah: Yes. I think I want all of those things who she mentioned. Yeah. And for sure also to be able to diversify not only so that I can make money in shorter amounts of time, but so that we can also get away from insurance and still see people at lower costs at the same time.

[00:09:48] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So that's really important to us, but yeah, the creative aspect is really important to me. Yeah. Having a young family, like just like you and also just getting bogged out, like sometimes. I don't wanna talk about heavy stuff all the time. Let's do something fun and creative and really feel like we're moving the needle forward.

[00:10:08] Marissa: I love that work hundred percent. Okay. So talk to me a little bit more about the business model, and then we can start talking about some marketing or some also it might be worth it to drive, to dive into some creation processes too, because if all your energy is going into creation, And then you're spent and then it's oh, but now I've gotta go market or now I've gotta go sell and that's not fun.

[00:10:29] Marissa: Can we talk about some systems and some procedures around timing that might help? 

[00:10:34] Sarah: Yeah. I love that. 

[00:10:36] Marissa: So help me understand the business model. What are things priced at? Are they just individual things? Are there bundles or kits or 

[00:10:43] Sarah: absolutely me through that. Based on some of the things that I was reading from you so the company is called Enneagram tools.

[00:10:49] Sarah: And it, the website launched a couple of weeks ago. 

[00:10:53] Marissa: Congratulations. That's a big deal. 

[00:10:55] Sarah: Thank you. I don't even know if it's searchable on Google yet, unfortunately, but we'll get there. And currently there are it's just downloadable sheets and guides and things. And they're set up in terms of three bundles. And so I think each bundle is at least 60 or 70 pages of things. Okay. And I think the there's an initial one, like brand new to the Enneagram yeah. Check it out. And I think that one is like 27 and then there's one more tailored for like clinicians or coaches to be in that brain space. And I think that one, I think that one was set at 47 and then the one for. Like client focused people, even if they're not in therapy. Yeah. But just they're in that position in the process is also 47 and they're significantly longer. I think they're at least 80 or so pages. 

[00:11:43] Marissa: I like hearing that you said therapist and coaches, because I think that this is valuable in the therapy space, but Enneagram is super hot and super popular in the coaching space as well.

[00:11:54] Marissa: I know somebody who started in Instagram, what probably 2017, 18 and has on engram specific also has a podcast and has already got a book deal for two books now, just because the topic is popular that she had that kind of growth in only four or five years. Doesn's incredible. 

[00:12:12] Marissa: So I think, keeping it for clinicians only. I wouldn't recommend that. I do think we can certainly have products that serve clinicians. You could also break 'em out if there's stuff that like you wanna have more of a clinical focus and then also, okay. You can use this in coaching, cuz you don't need as much of our background per se to use this.

[00:12:32] Marissa: But I like that you're in both spaces and that you're thinking about both spaces. 

[00:12:36] Sarah: Good. Thank you. Yeah. I struggled with figuring out, should I niche it down a lot? Cuz at first I didn't even include clients or client type people, but I have so many of my own clients or so many people that I would talk to that would appeal to, I didn't wanna leave them out. Yeah. So I've gone back and forth on that quite a bit. 

[00:12:54] Marissa: When we think about nicheing. You can have something called a pinpoint niche, which means you're very narrow on the person you're serving. And you're very narrow on the problem that you're solving. So that would be like engram for therapists only.

[00:13:07] Marissa: And this has its benefits because you start to get known for what you do very quickly, because you're doing a specific thing for a specific set of people. The downside of this, though, however, is you start to feel very boxed in right. What I recommend if you don't like that boxed in feeling is broadening one out, you need to keep one narrow. So you might have a very specific person therapist that you solve a broader problem for, but in your case, I'm hearing a problem niche, right? You're very specific on any angiogram, but you can take it. To other people, right? That doesn't mean that you're not going to focus on different subsets in, a wider range of people, engram for moms engram for teachers engram for coaches, engram for therapists.

[00:13:54] Marissa: Right now we've identified coaches and therapists and you still would have. You'd still would drill down on those, but you're drilling down on them at the same time. You're not like only therapists. 

[00:14:05] Sarah: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly it. I do have this hope that we can branch out into any cuz Ennegram tools is really the thing, right? Yeah. Like just very practical worksheets things that you can hold in your hand. That's not a book where you have to really take a lot of notes out of. And doing that for teachers doing that for parents doing that, like that in those subsets. Absolutely. You can already see right. How that could go.

[00:14:26] Marissa: Yeah. And what I would do is pick one or two to start with, right? So coaches and therapists to start your main message is the Enneagram solves X, Y, Z program. Get to know yourself a different way, more diverse than Myers Briggs or whatever, like whatever your promise is with the Enneagram.

[00:14:44] Marissa: And. When you're talking to that, when you have this message nailed down the problem message, then you can tailor it to different people, right? To parents, first therapists, right? The Enneagram can be a great tool with your clients because it can help them do this. And then when we're saying to parents, the Enneagram can be a great tool for your kids because it can help them do this.

[00:15:08] Marissa: It's like you template it almost, you know what your promise and problem your problem and your promise are. And then you take that template and you just tweak it for this audience. First, this audience, first this audience, you have to know your message first before you can do that tweaking.

[00:15:25] Marissa: So that's why we're not gonna start with 10 different audience groups. We're gonna start with one or two and then you can take it to the next audience group. The next audience. 

[00:15:33] Sarah: Yeah that, that makes a lot of sense to me. And think I'm, I think I'm going in that direction to start, so that makes me feel good.

[00:15:40] Sarah: Cool. And yeah, at the moment, and I'm also, so I have those three bundles of downloads and then I have something on there that just offers one on one consultation. Cool. And then what I want to do. Is to enhance those bundle downloads by creating videos with me, just explaining them and like talking about them and you can buy that or not totally up to you.

[00:16:03] Marissa: Yeah, because that was gonna be my one feedback is you're certainly in right now, at least low price, high volume, with 27 and $47 products. There's nothing wrong with that. But what you need is a lot of traffic. There's a couple of things that you can do. You can turn it subscription. So it's 27 a month and then you're getting recurring revenue. Or perhaps what I'm also picking up from you is then introducing higher tiered or higher prices that once they're a customer for the 27, then we can get them to upsell or to return and purchase something with a higher dollar amount or a higher value amount. 

[00:16:43] Sarah: I think that's where my mind is now but. Only because something like a subscription, when you say that oh, getting this like ongoing yeah. Thing that immediately makes me nervous because it's that same feeling I get with the marketing. It's just that constant drive of new and I don't. I don't know I can be an overthinker.

[00:17:04] Sarah: So I don't know if I'm doing that in this process where I'm selling myself short and I'm just not in the process of it long enough. Cause you know, I've been doing my other job for so long that now I can just put out right information easily. And I've, that's part of my expertise now. And I'm not there yet with this.

[00:17:22] Sarah: So maybe it's that or I just am blocked around it. 

[00:17:27] Marissa: Let me tell you about this and see if it sparks anything from you. When you talk about a constant drive of new, you're gonna have that either way, because it's either the new content that you create or it's having to go out and get a new customer every, and if you are more prone or inclined to the creation side of things, and then you only have to get a handful of customers and then you're retaining that customer.

[00:17:55] Marissa: That's, it's still new for you, but it's new of the stuff that you like to do or that you've you enjoy doing versus going out and getting a new customer. Cuz we have what's called LTV lifetime value of a customer and it EV if you have to go out and get a new customer every time. And it's a new customer. That's buying something that's 50 bucks. Then all your effort is in obtaining new customers, which is marketing. So I'm not trying to talk you into a subscription, but you're gonna have new on either end. When you're in high price categories. Like group programs or something like that. You still have to get the new customers, but each customer is paying you significantly more that you can get 10 to 20 new customers a year versus needing 10 to 20 new customers a month. So there's always new. The new just changes depending on what type of business model you choose. 

[00:18:56] Sarah: Yes. And I, in the group practice or in private practice setting in general, I'm very used to Not having to find lots of customers all the time, lots of clients.

[00:19:06] Sarah: Because especially since our group practice opened, a lot of my clients have been with me for years. And I'm not, I don't have a therapy model where that's required. It just that they like it and that works out. But I'm constantly adapting right. To what their needs are. And I like that, cuz that's the creative part of therapy, 

[00:19:23] Marissa: a new treatment plan every six months or whatever.

[00:19:25] Sarah: So I am used to that.

[00:19:26] Marissa: And so that is what I would compare that to something that was subscription based because the newness is happening within the offer instead of bringing new people to the same offer. Does that make sense how I'm explaining that? 

[00:19:40] Sarah: Yeah, I think so. It's definitely the idea of either a subscription or joining a group or having a paywall barrier in some right regard. It's just intimidating to me. 

[00:19:53] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. It's new. It's different. Yeah. We're thinking about customers versus clients. So it is, it's a mindset shift. It's different. 

[00:20:02] Sarah: Absolutely. 

[00:20:03] Marissa: But those are just opportunities for scale.

[00:20:06] Marissa: And those are just opportunities for more cash. Just pointing out different possibilities for you down the road. Right now we've got three or four different offers or different options at their price points. And it's about now let's start getting maybe more consistent sales. 

[00:20:21] Sarah: Yes. Cuz right. I imagine I at least need to know how to do that. yeah. That's first. 

[00:20:27] Marissa: Then we can talk about scalability. Then we can talk about growth. There's build grow scale. Yes. And you've just entered or just you're still in build phase because the infrastructure is built. The website's there, the offers are there, but we're still building in terms of now customer base.

[00:20:42] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:20:43] Marissa: And once you know how to do that, then we go into grow. Okay. We can get sales now, how do we get more scale, more sales? And then from grow, we go into scale and it's okay, we're getting more sales. How do we do this in an automated way at scale, where we can predict revenue and that kind of stuff. That's the last stage.

[00:21:02] Sarah: Yes.

[00:21:02] Marissa: That makes sense. What have you been doing so far? To build buzz to get an audience, to make sales. Have you sold any products so far? 

[00:21:13] Sarah: Just a friends and family, which okay. Counts, but yes, totally. I'm still waiting on my first like unknown person sale. 

[00:21:21] Marissa: Yeah, no, don't even, I think that's so valid because we don't have to worry about dual relationships and especially being an LCSW, you're like locked down on that. Like once a client, always a client your license is pretty strict on that kind of stuff. But in the online space, like your best friend can buy from you. Your mom can buy from you and it there's nothing. Wrong with that. And in fact, that's one of the things that I always encourage is start with, we call it a colleagues launch or a friends and family launch, but start with people who, you know, and they might not purchase from you, but they can at least send you their friend, which is a little frowned upon when we start getting into therapy, you've gotta have like your degrees of separation.

[00:22:00] Marissa: So I think that's awesome. 

[00:22:03] Sarah: thanks. Yeah, we've just done friends and family. I've had a little, so it's been very, just word of mouth marketing in that regard. Yeah. Marketing through our current practice and I do wanna. Also hear your thoughts on just making sure it's all separated out correctly. Yeah. Especially in Texas. I've done tried to do some research on that, but it's a little confusing. Yeah. But at least through our company saying, Hey, here's a new company that we're supporting. Yeah. And doing it that way. 

[00:22:30] Marissa: And because these are just assets right now, just digital products. I, you don't need to worry about separating it out. If you ever get into coaching or running group programs or education where people are like and you'd probably would be doing more business coaching, especially if the therapists and coaches are your clients, because this would be how to use the Enneagram in your business.

[00:22:50] Marissa: You're pretty safe for now. I don't think you need to worry about it, especially when it's digital products, when you're doing the direct to consumer stuff and the people are like, oh, I'm gonna teach you how to use any angiogram to improve your life. Like then we start to get into, we need to have some safeguards here.

[00:23:07] Marissa: We need to make sure we're not doing therapy, that this is very separate, that we can have a paper trail and a What am I trying to say? A paper trail and like justification or ways to show that this is very different. That's when you start doing that direct to consumer stuff. 

[00:23:22] Sarah: And so you're saying like like the one on one consulting piece that's up there , if that really becomes really popular, like a big part of the business, then I need to separate it out and separate it out meaning not under our current group practice or my license, like at all, separate everything. 

[00:23:44] Marissa: Yeah. What I recommend is a separate business license. This can totally be a sole prop or I don't, I can't remember if Texas calls it a DBA doing business as, or a sole prop I've had, I've moved so many times but It doesn't have to be an LLC or anything like that. To start, if you start making significant money, you might choose to do an LLC, but to start. So I would have separate business license and separate bank accounts so that the funds are not commingled. And then you already have a separate website. Yeah, that's right.

[00:24:14] Sarah: Okay. Okay. Good. That, that makes me feel a bit better. I was thinking about that. Wanting to, I, we did some things backwards with our group PR well, maybe not backwards, just difficult in terms of becoming sole proprietors to a group practice and combining all of that. And it felt backwards. Yeah. And so we felt that pain of having to slog through fixing and changing all of that.

[00:24:35] Sarah: So I did not wanna do that again. Let's just get it right from the beginning. 

[00:24:38] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. It's grown changed. So it just sometimes just is what it is. The other thing is when you start marketing The when you start marketing the consultation or, if there's any kind of coaching involved, leaning more into your degrees, like masters of clinical, social work, masters of mental health or whatever your husband's is using those instead of LPC and LCSW, L P C and L C SW.

[00:25:01] Marissa: So going, leaning away from your license and leaning toward maybe your degree because your degree isn't regulated, but your license. 

[00:25:09] Sarah: Okay, perfect. I did. I hear you talk with somebody about that and. At first it set my page up more clinically, like here are my clinical. Credentials and look, I know what I'm talking about.

[00:25:20] Sarah: And then kinda stripped that back some yeah.

[00:25:23] Marissa: Yeah, check, you can look at Texas, but I. The term psychotherapist isn't is regulated in Utah, but it's not regulated in every state or just therapist because there's massage therapist, occupational, the like therapist is too blanket of a term. So you can certainly say, I have credibility here, but not lean into the regulated terms, the license letters and the regulated phrasing. 

[00:25:47] Sarah: Got it. Okay. So then I'm okay how that's set up right now and you said really digital assets are also okay. So even if I make instructional videos and other levels, it sounds like that all goes in there together. So that's really great. 

[00:26:00] Marissa: Yeah. It's once you start interacting one-on-one with people. Not one-on-one one-on-one or group face to face with people. And then we take an even closer look at what it's about. If you're helping that person solve life coaching related problems, or heat not heal, but like work on themselves health improvement.

[00:26:23] Marissa: That's where we need to get really careful because that can lean into healing and replicate or look like therapy. And so that's when our precautions need to be really strong. 

[00:26:35] Sarah: Okay. Perfect. So given that I'm currently still low price, high volume. Yeah. And I do need to learn how to attain customers that in a very different way than what I am used to, what are some effective ways to do that in the way things are now? Cause even social media is changing a lot. And I know it's a it's it seems like a must do, but maybe I'm wrong. 

[00:27:01] Marissa: Because of your subject matter and just knowing. Engram hashtags on both Instagram and on TikTok. I do think social media can be helpful for you. And I think you could grow on social pretty fast because it's already a popular topic normally.

[00:27:17] Marissa: And social is not necessary for any any online income stream. We can generate traffic in many different ways. It doesn't only have to be social media. So the first thing is, do you enjoy it? Do is social media fun for you? Or do you wanna hire it out? If you want a social presence, then we can certainly go there.

[00:27:38] Marissa: The thing about social media is it falls under the category of content marketing, which means you're building your own platform from scratch. You're gonna sign up for an Instagram account. It's gonna have zero followers and you're gonna have to grow that from zero all the way up versus visibility marketing, which is.

[00:27:59] Marissa: Utilizing people that, you know, and, or going out and meeting new people who already have an audience they've already built their platform from scratch and you can serve existing audiences. So visibility, marketing and content marketing, both have pros and cons. If you're uncomfortable being visible or putting yourself out there, if you're not really into networking or you're on the introverted side, visibility marketing is probably not gonna be very fun for you but it is the fastest, it's the most expedient type of marketing, because again, you're not building the platform from scratch. You're going to a platform that already exists. So I think about taking a net into a pond of fish and scooping up fish and then going and plopping them in like your empty pond.

[00:28:48] Marissa: Versus taking fish eggs and letting them like have to hatch and grow and develop in your own pond. That's the different feel between the two. If you have thought leadership, you have a message, you have things you want to share. Then content marketing is great because that's what it is. It's you voicing your thoughts, opinions, beliefs, creating that platform 

[00:29:09] Sarah: so I like thinking about it in this way. I think. I am introverted. Yeah. So when you said that I'm thinking, oh, okay, maybe not, but I have ideas and things I wanna say in regards to the Ennegram I get caught up in I, are they, quote like unique enough to be different. Cause like you said, it is so it's so big right now that, I don't know. I have this I guess this hang up of like just another voice saying the exact same thing over and over again. So why me, what's attention grabbing about that. 

[00:29:42] Marissa: And that's gonna lean into your branding. What is the difference between engram tools brand and the friend that I was mentioning earlier? She's engram and coffee. So you might follow her over her. Yeah. Yeah. So she is like any gram and coffee. Her brand is let's get a cup of coffee. Let's chill. Let's almost, it's got a cozy feel. It's got a laid back feel. And it's also here's how we're gonna use this Enneagram. To create thinking about her group program, how she talks about this really it's almost lifestyle design is what she's going after, like knowing your Enneagram can help you, make these different decisions and dah.

[00:30:23] Marissa: With that kind of soft with that kind of cozy vibe. So if we're thinking engram tools, what's the vibe of engram tools. Is it more, maybe I'm just making this up, but like maybe more direct, more concrete, more measurable, right? That's those are the words I'm deriving from tools, right? So the, that is gonna be the flavor that makes yours different. It might be the same exact information, and engram one is da. But hers is gonna be like, the Enneagram one is flowy and cozy and this, that, and then yours is more like engram one. And here's how it works. And like more directive or whatever. So the information is the same, the flavor, we can use a therapeutic word and say the lens is different.

[00:32:48] Marissa: So you don't have to get creative with the information. Cause the information is what the information is, right? A three goes denied in stress or whatever, right? Like these that's just what it is, but the way you talk about it, 

[00:33:04] Sarah: that makes sense. So I spent a lot of time on. The design of the website and how it feels and all of that. Really yeah, two years. And that is important to me. And like even the documents themselves, what they look like is very important to me and the experience you have with them rather than just being like black words on a white page. Yeah. So I'm what I'm hearing you really say is a lot of times it's not about just constantly being like that unique voice on the same topic, but it's just doing ha talking about it in the way that feels good to you. And you're gonna attract people who just wanna talk about it in that exact same way, 

[00:33:42] Marissa: hundred percent. And I think this is an important point too, because we think when we think of branding, we think of logos and colors and fonts and the way things look and visual branding is important, but visual is only half the picture the brand message, the brand values, the brand content that is the other half of the picture. So that's what maybe thinking about what is Sarah's take on this. 

[00:34:07] Sarah: Which I think my I've got the visual parts so far and that's really clear yeah. On what my take is on things, but yeah the voice of it.

[00:34:16] Marissa: And so what I would do is find somebody who either hasn't seen your website. Couple, I have a couple of different exercises are coming to mind, find somebody that hasn't seen your website, and then describe it, describe what you want to them, and then show them the pictures, show them your logo or whatever, and say, did these two things match? The other thing you can do is have somebody close their eyes. And describe it to them. Oh, it feels like this. And this is how I would explain this and da, and then have them tell you what their what imagery is coming into their mind so that your words are matching the visuals. 

[00:35:00] Sarah: That makes sense. Especially then creating. stuff on Instagram and things like that. Cause I want them to all coordinate. 

[00:35:08] Marissa: Yeah. And those are the two places. If you do go into social, I would recommend Instagram and. 

[00:35:14] Sarah: TikTok intimidates me a lot. So I'll just hang on Instagram. 

[00:35:17] Marissa: I've recently really fallen in love with it, but it's own culture.

[00:35:21] Marissa: It's very once you get it it's actually the easiest social media I've ever done. Really. Yeah, but it's a different feel. You gotta figure it out and then it's like super easy.

[00:35:31] Sarah: And are you talking about TikTok specifically or TikTok and Instagram reels? Cuz they seem like they're similar.

[00:35:38] Marissa: They are. My, so somebody, I know, I actually just invested in a program with her. She made a TikTok that said, oh, I was just over on Instagram reels. And they're like, plastics. That's literally what it is like. Reels are similar in format, but again, it's that culture piece. No one wears makeup on TikTok. There's cer there are certain sides of TikTok that are very like, done up, but most of the time, it's no, one's got makeup on. No, one's trying like on Instagram reels, you're gonna find like the background with the lighting and the, this, and it's still gotta look. Polished. There's no Polish on TikTok.

[00:36:13] Marissa: So that's one of the reasons that I like it is I can literally just wake up and the longest videos are three minutes and I could talk for a minute and a half and then I'm done. So there's ways to use the platform effectively, but it's not for everybody for sure. 

[00:36:28] Sarah: I'm brand new to all of it. So I'm trying to recognize what is gonna be helpful to grow. And then it's just, I need to push through my, my, learners feelings. And then what is also just not a match for me in my lifestyle. 

[00:36:43] Marissa: Something that a lot of people do for human design, which. Related to what you're talking about, but different is they'll pull up they'll the green screen effect and they'll pull up a design chart and they'll just be like, this is this center and it's defined or undefined.

[00:36:57] Marissa: And so you could do the same thing with the engram. Like you could have the wheel and how like the lines go and you'd be like, okay, so this goes to this and this goes to this. So there's cool things that you could do from an educational standpoint. 

[00:37:12] Sarah: How much would you, I think you actually just sent an email out about this, but how much would you say it really? You need to be personally showing up. in how you talk about things. Cuz I can create things. That's like graphics and I mean I'm behind it, I'm in it, but it's not my face or me actually simulating a conversation

[00:37:33] Marissa: to sell digital products. Not very much if you're gonna, if people are gonna start signing up for pricier programs to work with you, it's essential.

[00:37:43] Sarah: Okay. That makes sense. Cause I mean they're really standing up to work with you. So can you talk to me a little bit more about visibility marketing, what I was raised in a household that is very hard working, but also not to. Be presumptuous and just go up to people and just ask for things yeah.

[00:38:01] Sarah: For hate. And so in my mind, it may not be that, but that's what it feels like, hey, you have a thing and I want some of your things, so can I have it? 

[00:38:08] Marissa: exactly. Which is your objective, but what we're doing here, this is a perfect example. I told my kids that they didn't have to go to daycare this year. For summer and it felt like a really good decision at the time, but then now I'm like, oh shit. What am I gonna do? So I was like okay. The number one thing I can't do when they're home is record podcasts. Okay. How do I get a summer's worth of podcast episodes? I'm gonna ask for coaching episodes.

[00:38:36] Marissa: I'm gonna ask for people to come on and we're recording in may and school ends in three weeks. And I've been doing this for, like the last three, four weeks. It's just loading up on these guest episodes. So I don't have to create content because normally I spend an hour outlining every episode, and then I spend up to an hour recording every episode.

[00:38:54] Marissa: So it's two hours of my time. And now this is an hour of my time, but. It's more dynamic. I don't have to think as much. I didn't have to outline the episode. So for the content creator or the platform host, it's actually really helpful to have guests. 

[00:39:13] Sarah: So you are, that has to be a guest. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:16] Marissa: You're serving them just as much as they're serving you. 

[00:39:20] Sarah: Okay. And so it, so one of the ways is obviously being in conversation with people, either on podcasts or in social media, some, something like that is, are there other ways to do that?

[00:39:33] Marissa: Yeah, so you can so there's kind of two level, not levels. That's not the right word. Two approaches to visibility marketing one where you approach a host. What we've been talking about, like pitching a podcast. Hey, I have some valuable information. It would be great for your audience. I can save you time this week on your content. Would you like me to come on and talk about X, Y, Z, right?

[00:39:56] Marissa: You can also then become the host and gather people to you, but the difference is all of those people that you're gathering have an audience. You prob you probably haven't been following me this long, but some of the listeners remember back to 2017. When I hosted holiday happy hour, it was like a 30 day event that started the day after Thanksgiving and it ended a couple of days before Christmas. And I invited other clinicians with big audiences just to come hang out with me. And we put on presentations every night for therapists, how to grow your practice, how to market, how do you do private pay, how to do this da da. And we required people to sign up for for the event, with their email list or with their email address.

[00:40:35] Marissa: And we got a list of 2000 people for a 30 day event. That launched it's. That was what launched my business because I was still doing one on one back then. I was still writing four therapists, writing websites and writing blogs for therapists. And so from that event, people were just reaching out to me and I was full with one on work, one work through June of the next year.

[00:40:57] Marissa: I had writing slots through June and I knew I wasn't gonna do one on one or done for you services. Long term. And I used that 2000 initial email list to launch my first course. Wow. I'm replicating this also with rooted, which you might be familiar with or not, but it's my new kind of spiritual business that I'm starting.

[00:41:17] Marissa: And so starting in June, my birthday actually is on summer solstice. So starting in June, I'm gonna host monthly circles and I'm bringing in an astrologer Aero reader, a whatever, but all of those people have an audience. So it's Hey, we're having a summer solstice circle, come get your cards, read, come listen to we're gonna have some singing bowls played some like for some chakra stuff.

[00:41:40] Marissa: I'm gonna be talking about whatever and if you wanna come to our event, make sure you register. So I don't have an audience for rooted. I have 50 people who've taken my quiz. Woo. So I'm starting from nothing, but I'm bringing other people in I'm creating the landing pages. I'm hosting the event.

[00:41:58] Marissa: So that's my contribution, cuz I don't have people to bring, I'm bringing the technology. I'm bringing the infrastructure. I'm bringing that. They just have to bring their people at the day and the time. 

[00:42:09] Sarah: Yeah. As, as introverted as I can be, I think I actually can manage that. Yeah, really well. And so now I'm thinking, okay. If I can obviously think about who I already know and how that could fit, but what if you don't know these people, right? Yeah. How would you suggest. I go about that. 

[00:42:28] Marissa: Yeah. So that's where I do think social comes in play. Is you like, I literally on TikTok have my favorite section divided into I was just saying astrologers, taro, readers energy healers or whatever.

[00:42:44] Marissa: And when I come across and beyond TikTok that I like their message and I like their brand. I save their video, but I save it to their respective folder. And so now when I'm planning these circles, I go in, I dip into the astrologer folder and I pull that person out and I'm like, send them a message and say, Hey, I'm hosting this monthly event.

[00:43:03] Marissa: Would you be interested in contributing? So you can ask them straight up to come to your event or to collaborate, or you can do a coffee date, which is you meet them on zoom for a few minutes beforehand, half an hour and just get to know each other and suss each other out and then ask from there, if they wanna do a collaboration.

[00:43:24] Sarah: And if you don't have a podcast, what are ways that you can host things like this? If you're hosting the conversation. 

[00:43:31] Marissa: Yeah, I'll host all of mine on zoom, cuz I don't have a podcast for rooted or anything like that. So it'll just be a zoom room. People will have to sign up. I'll make, so I'll make a landing page.

[00:43:40] Marissa: I use mailer light, which is E the email software. So on that landing page, it'll be like, summer's supposed to circle June 20th, 7:00 PM. Come. I making this up off the top of my head. come. Find your soul sisters and do rituals, blah, blah, blah, together, whatever. And there'll be like bullet points of what we're gonna.

[00:44:01] Marissa: And then it'll be like, save your spot here. Name, email, save my spot is the button. And so with that infrastructure I'll then have the link. It'll be like Marissalawtoncom/solstice or something like that. Now I have to make that link . But so on, on my TikTok, which is super duper small, I'll share that link, but all of the people that I invite, that's gonna be their job.

[00:44:23] Marissa: Is to share that link out and together, if you've got five people and each person brings 25 people, then you're at like 125 for the event. And you've grown your list by hundreds. 

[00:44:37] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I. I actually feel less anxious about doing this than the kind of starting from scratch. Yeah. What am I gonna say? Like that piece of it? Yep. 

[00:44:52] Marissa: And what I always do with my introverted students is we build buffers. So you're resting, you have output and then you're resting again. So that's kinda what I was talking about with that time management piece. That energy management piece is you can sprint, but you need to have rest maybe on both sides.

[00:45:08] Sarah: I have learned that for sure. That is true of me. I didn't realize it at the time. Yeah. That's why I got burnt out. So like a couple of times over the last couple of years Because I operate that way. I kind of wanna like enlarge chunks, do a bunch of things. But I don't turn it off maybe very well. 

[00:45:25] Marissa: So having a very defined end point. Yes. Yeah. So if you're gonna do an event, let's say you could get three or four engram people together, engram specific and have an engram panel. And so if you do six people. You and five others. Each of you talks for 10 minutes, that's an hour. And then you have an hour for Q and a. So it ends up being a two hour event. And you would discuss ahead of time, since you all do engram, you'd discuss ahead of time. Like what each one of you is gonna present on or teach on for the 10 minutes, cuz you wouldn't want those to be overlapping.

[00:46:03] Marissa: You'd want them to be so maybe someone's talking about The 1 38, like the power group or whatever it's called. And then someone's talking about this. And then someone else is talking about wings and someone else is talking about, stress points or whatever. So you can do it like that, where everybody has the same subject matter, or you could get a Myers, Briggs person.

[00:46:20] Marissa: You could get a human design person. You could get you as the Ennegram person. And you could just do like a personality event or whatever. 

[00:46:29] Sarah: That makes sense. Yeah. Those are great ideas. It's like you do this all the time. 

[00:46:33] Marissa: It's funny because that's how I built my business. But then the last year I've been like running ads and I was talking to my coach Jacqueline and I was like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna turn ads on for my rooted quiz.

[00:46:44] Marissa: And she literally had like a shook my shoulders through the screen up moment. She's like, why are you not doing what you're good at? Like, why are you not doing your strength? Which is. Collaborations. It's worked for you to build another, like multi six figure business. Why are you not doing it? And I was like, you're right. and it does, it works. It's organic. So you don't have to pay money for it. And it works fast. Other ideas of visibility marketing, since we're starting to do in-person events, again is like conferences. Conferences are great because you can speak at the conference.

[00:47:18] Marissa: You could be a keynote speaker. You could speak on the stage. You could just be like a side presenter or a panelist at a conference. I've done both of those. Or you can have a booth at a conference and not have to be a speaker at all. Or you can buy an ad in the conference program and give visibility that way.

[00:47:37] Marissa: But that conference has already sold a hundred, 200, 300 tickets. So you're getting in front of an established audience. You're getting in front of a bigger group at a time. So it doesn't only have to be going on other people's platforms. It doesn't have to be hosting events. It could be even offline things like conference, but you're using it to run your online business or to feed your online business.

[00:48:00] Sarah: Absolutely. I this is really helpful. And I am forgetting one thing that I wanted to ask, and I know that we talked, you mentioned discussing kind of creation processes. Yeah. So I wanted to hear more about that. And then I, hopefully I can remember the other thing that has come out of what we were talking about.

[00:48:21] Marissa: Yeah. That's just interrupt me if I'm talking. And you're like, oh, I remember. Yeah, cuz we talked a little bit about like the energy management around visibility marketing. You also wanna think about the energy management around your Your asset creation. So if you're making a bundle like worksheet bundle or something like that, maybe you decide to split out one just for coaches or something like that.

[00:48:41] Marissa: Let's say Are you somebody? So there's kind of two approaches. There's batching and there's time blocking. Now that Hailey handles my podcast. I have to batch for her because she has contractors that she sub out all the imagery and the editing and all of that. So I have to batch for her. And that was an adjustment because I'm not a natural batcher.

[00:49:00] Marissa: I'm a, an actual time blocker so before Hailey, what I used to do is outline on Monday record on Tuesday. Give it to my other editor on Wednesday, write my email for the week on Thursday. And I did a little piece every day and that felt more natural for me versus batching, which is sitting down recording four episodes in a week or in two or three days and getting them out to her.

[00:49:24] Marissa: And then I don't have to do it again for another four or five weeks. So does either of those sound more like you more like your personality? 

[00:49:32] Sarah: I think if in observing myself, I might be a better batcher, but in my mind, I think I'm totally more capable of time blocking. Yeah. And I need to I time block my weeks.

[00:49:43] Sarah: I see clients several in a day, three days a week and it's very long days. And then the other days I can do other things. 

[00:49:51] Marissa: Yeah. So that's batch. Oh, okay. There you go. That's you're taking like tasks and you're putting them together and then having other time for like other things.

[00:50:01] Marissa: Okay. So that's what I do. batching, your creation might look like one day from, 10 in the morning, till two in the afternoon, all you're doing is design, but it's, but then all the design is done and you have no other task. Okay. But we're gonna have. You're gonna have marketing, you're gonna have sales and you're gonna have creation.

[00:50:21] Marissa: Marketing is bringing people into your space. Selling is converting them to, to buyers and then creating what they're actually buying in your case because it's digital products that has to be created ahead of time. Because they're not gonna buy and then wait a week for you to deliver the thing.

[00:50:40] Marissa: It's not like you're shipping something or whatever. They're gonna want it immediately. So your creation is actually at the front end, so create market sell. Okay. What I would decide on is a frequency with which you're going to release new products. It could be just quarterly, right? And then you only have one creation, batch, or one creation.

[00:51:04] Marissa: Chunk once a quarter, the marketing is gonna have to be ongoing. And for you, these are really great passive income quote unquote products. So they can be selling automatically as well. 

[00:51:21] Sarah: That's the hope for sure. So then in my mind, if I have the copyright or have the copy written correctly, then hopefully a lot of the conversion is already there. If you, if I can just get you to the website. Yeah. Or in the marketing that you've seen it's my hope, my goal. And so then yeah, my brain is wrapped down. Okay. How do I have just affected marketing then? Yeah, just getting in front of people. 

[00:51:44] Marissa: There's one podcast that I'll send you to. It's called the product boss Jacqueline and Mina. I've known them for several years. They're more about physical products, but they do have some stuff on digital products, but there's, it's a little bit different to sell, even though the project is digital, you're selling a unit of something. Versus like enrolling somebody in a course or like a coaching program or whatever it's a little bit different.

[00:52:10] Marissa: So I think that podcast could really be valuable for you. They have an Instagram and they have a Facebook group and stuff like that, too. 

[00:52:17] Sarah: Okay. Thank you. Oh I did remember by the way. Yeah. What the other thing was, because you talked about how. Really changed the game for you when you did those events and then you increased your email list by a lot.

[00:52:29] Sarah: And so then the next step is email marketing. And I am not a natural writer. Yeah. And your emails, a couple of other people I follow, it seems like they're like just a really, it's like a good conversation. It's an easy, they're easy to read and I'm also intimidated by that, but it seems like a really big piece of all of.

[00:52:51] Marissa: Yeah. And there's some tricks for that. You can always record videos and put those in your in your emails and just be like, Hey, here's this week's message. And it's just you talking if that's less intimidating. Some of my students, especially when we're writing like sales pages that are huge and stuff like that when they're not strong writers, what they do is text to talk. So Google has Google docs has text to talk, or you could use like a notes app in your phone. Or a voice memo app in your phone and just talk it out first and then copy and paste it into the email and edit for grammar and punctuation and that kind of stuff. But sometimes that is easier. Okay.

[00:53:31] Marissa: There's also tons of email templates that you can buy. If you just, if you went on Pinterest and searched email marketing template, There would probably be like sales emails and nurture emails and all that kind of stuff. I think that could be a good start, but I'd want you eventually to start getting to the point where you can use like your own voice and your own stuff, but they can be a good jumping off point.

[00:53:54] Sarah: Okay. Do you have any advice on where to even get started with the frequency or what you're actually saying. Cuz what I don't wanna do, cuz I don't like it is just either constantly bombarded people, which probably won't be my style. Cuz I don't know that I wanna say a whole bunch of things, but also how do you draw them in, if you only get one shot when they read your email, right? Yeah. So like, how do you pace all that? Cause I'm under, I'm starting to understand automated sequencing and their programs that do that. I'm learning about that. Yep. So I don't have to be the one to auto to manually send it out, but yeah.

[00:54:28] Marissa: What works really great with product businesses is 10% off, which is you're already low price, but like a 10% off coupon, you get their email address. That way they can get their first bundle for a discount. And then having an automated sequence. Off of that when they first sign up to then have them that when we're doing a program, we have email six and email seven lead to a wait list.

[00:54:53] Marissa: But for you email six and email seven could lead straight to the shop because you don't have anything that you're like having them wait for. And then after that, the fre, the lowest frequency that I recommend is every other week, once a week, really is best. But if it's not feasible every other week is fine.

[00:55:13] Marissa: When you're a new brand, it's not worth it to email once a month. That's really only gonna be best for when you're established. You can drop down your frequency a little bit, but if somebody doesn't is just getting to know you, they, you need to be top of mind more frequently than that. 

[00:55:27] Sarah: Okay. And doesn' need to be a certain length.

[00:55:33] Marissa: Mine are longer. I'm wordy, it could just be two paragraphs. Okay. Who do I follow? I follow moon Omans and they just send an affirmation. They do it daily, but it's literally a one sentence affirmation every day. There is actually an engram person that I follow.

[00:55:50] Marissa: I think it's like the engram Institute actually. Oh, and they, yeah. I love that. Yeah. They send An engram message every day. Yes. Yeah. You're obviously not gonna be on that frequency, but it could just be, Hey, here's your Enneagram message for the week and it could just be that short. 

[00:56:07] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. That's a good idea. My, I have a coach actually, who coaches through the Indian Graham lens and , she's incredible. And she and her Facebook group writes on that daily email every day. 

[00:56:20] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:56:22] Sarah: And generates conversation around that. Okay, good. So

[00:56:25] Sarah: I don't need to change any of my business stuff, which is great. I do need to find a way to get lots of traffic and while I'm building my skill set with content marketing. I will start learning how to do visibility marketing

[00:56:42] Marissa: and visibility marketing really helps you hone your message, because if you're talking on somebody else's podcast and they're interviewing you, you'd be like, oh, that's a great idea.

[00:56:49] Marissa: Jot that down for something. Oh, jot that down for something. 

[00:56:53] Sarah: Okay. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:56:55] Marissa: So what do you feel is your first action step from our conversation?

[00:57:00] Sarah: Oh, my first one I think too well, I have two. I think my very first one is to consider who I already know that I can collaborate with. Yeah. And just make that list. I think I've started doing a little bit of that already actually. And it's Hey, can you check this out? If you like it, will you tell your friends about it? That kind of thing. But scaling that up and then I think second to that and is getting my email words and content going so that when those people show up, I've already done that work if I wanna send them emails.

[00:57:36] Sarah: Yeah. And get that out of the way. Yeah. Cause that sound like what you'd suggest no, that sounds great. 

[00:57:44] Marissa: Whatever you feel inspired to take action. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So we have obviously a whole group of therapists listening here. If they're interested in any Enneagram resources for themselves or any Enneagram recess sources for their clients: enneagramtools. com Perfect. Simple, like I said, I don't even know if it's Googleable yet, but you can get there if you put in the link directly. Yeah. And on Instagram I have just kinda more of a landing page right now and it's Igram tools official. 

[00:58:13] Sarah: Perfect. Yay. Awesome. We'll put both of those in the show notes for everybody and go check out sarah's work guys. Let's support another side. Hustler. 

[00:58:23] Marissa: Thank you so much. Yeah. So helpful. 

[00:58:26] Sarah: Awesome. All right.

[00:58:29] Sarah: Okay. So thinking back on Sarah's episode, the biggest thing that stands out for me is this idea of flexibility. When I talk about having a side hustle I talk about it in terms of having two faucets. Now, most of us, our private practice faucet is just cranked. It's cranked to its max and the water is just gushing and gushing.

[00:58:50] Sarah: And we can hardly . We can hardly contain it. We're we feel like we're flooding. We feel like we're overflowing. When you introduce another income stream, you now have another faucet and turning it on at first might be like a little trickle, but as you're able to dial that second faucet up, you're able to then dial the practice faucet down and you can always crank them.

[00:59:15] Sarah: Crank one all the way up one all the way down. You can have 'em both in the middle and you can play around with those dials. And it just gives you so much more flexibility in your life. One thing that Sarah said is that she wants to be able to get off insurance panels, but also one of her values and her husband's value for their practice is accessibility.

Sarah: If you have money coming in from another income stream, you can then have some open path spots, some pro bono spots, or even keep your hourly rate low, even though that's frowned upon our, in our industry right now. Because your. Income is supplemented by another source. So again, that flexibility, the ability to tap into your values and see how you want to work with whom when, why all of these questions are possible to answer when you have.

Sarah: This flexibility. So I think that's a big key that I got from my conversation with Sarah. If you are somebody who wants to build in flexibility, I really want you to check out my course space holder is a really quick course. It's six modules. The lessons are super short. I think the longest lesson is maybe 30 minutes.

Sarah: And it's really designed to get you through six steps of coming up with an offer. It's. Six step system that you can do ingest maybe. I don't know, let's call, I call it a weekend course, cuz I think you can do it in two, two, three days, but let's call it a week. And you can have a fully fleshed out concept.

Sarah: That's not only super solid in its construction in terms of this will sell and this is marketable, but it also translates those clinical skills that you're using into a new, fun, lighter, more creative way of working. So if you're craving flexibility like Sarah, I think you should check out space holder.

Sarah: You can do that over at Marisalawton.com/space-holder we still have several more episodes of this coaching series coming up. So we will be back with the next one and until then keep on rising. 

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