Quarter 4 Biz Bestie Chat with Lee Chaix McDonough
Does your work really support your lifestyle?
If you’ve ever dealt with ...
A personal health issue
Overwhelm or burnout
Relationship issues
… in a work environment that wasn’t supportive, you know how downright exhausting it can be.
The thing is, transition periods are inevitable in life and business. You deserve to be in a role that allows you some leniency in diverting your energy and attention as needed.
Listen to the latest Episode of Empathy Rising to learn more
CLICK BELOW TO LISTEN!
Show Notes:
Hey, Risers. Welcome back to episode 185 of Empathy Rising. I am really excited for you guys to hear this conversation today. This is my Q4 chat with Biz Bestie Lee Chaix McDonough.
We talk about soulmates in this episode in terms of mates of our soul, and Lee is absolutely somebody who I would say counts as that and qualifies as somebody who I would consider a soulmate. We share just so much with each other personally and also in terms of our businesses.
We share very similar values and trajectories and wants and needs and experiences and all that stuff that you would expect from somebody who is just really close to you. Lee is an incredible woman and also an incredible businesswoman.
I'm excited for you to hear our chat. If you've been following along throughout the year, you might have noticed that yes, we missed our Q3 episode. We have Q1, Q2, and we missed quarter three.
We go into a little bit about why that was and just how Q3 was rough for both of us, and then she leaves us with some beautiful words of wisdom at the end of the episode. I hope you love it as much as I do. I hope it brings you a lot of value, and I hope that as our last episode of the year, it just gives you some nice, warm feelings before you hunker down before your holidays. Here is my conversation with Lee.
Melissa (M): Hey Risers. Welcome back to Empathy Rising. I did not look at the Episode number before I started, so I have no idea ...we're in the 180s somewhere. When I record my intro, I will be more prepared, we are back with our Q4 chat with my biz bestie and just bestie in general. Lee Chaix McDonough and we're gonna give you our Q4 update.
If you've been paying attention, yes, we missed Q3 and we'll get into why that is, but I'm excited to just be chatting with her at the end of the year here, doing just a recap and also just the way I see it, a chance to hunker down, reevaluate things we liked, didn't like up to this point, sit in the present moment for a while and then maybe start talking about what we're looking forward to.
I think that's probably the way we'll go. We'll see how it goes, but Lee, if you wanna do one more just intro in case there's anybody who is new to the podcast who hasn't been following along this year so far, and then we'll just jump in.
Lee (L): Okay. Hi everyone. I'm Lee McDonough. I'm the founder of Coach with Clarity, which is a training and education company for intuitive creative professionals looking to transition into or deepen their mastery of coaching.
I provide programs that are accredited by the International Coaching Federation, both to become a coach and also to maintain your coaching credential.
I just love working with coaches and I love helping them become better at what they do. I love helping them build stronger businesses. Everything about coaching, that's what I'm passionate about.
M: Yeah, and Lee is a former psychotherapist. Do you still keep your license?
L: So my license, that is something that happened Q2, Q3, yeah, it is on inactive status. Both states where I am slash was licensed. I am no longer actively practicing. It is official. Which feels really good actually.
M: Yeah. I didn't renew in 2021. I know. It was like a morning. I was like, one morning I was like, "What am I gonna do?" I just was like, "You know what? If I ever want to go back to therapy, I'll go back to my school and I'll do it all over again, but I just don't see it," so I let mine go. I just didn't even put it inactive.
L: I think that's such a brave choice. I held onto my North Carolina LCSW for years, literally, until this year because I felt like I needed a safety net. It was always that what if? Finally, I was like, "if I need a safety net, I'll figure it out. I'm resilient, I'm resourceful, it's gonna be fine" and I don't necessarily have to go back to therapy as a safety net. I can do something else.
Now I'm not at the point yet where I'm ready to completely abandon it. Inactive status means if I wanted to reactivate it, I'd have to do my CE and I'd be fine. It costs like 30 bucks a year to do that, so why not keep it inactive?
M: But sometimes I'm like, "I should have done that," but I just didn't even wanna do the asshole. I was just like, I'm just not renewing.
L: I don't think you need to. Look at the businesses you've created. You are just fine. Just fine without it.
M: I had that...you brought the word resilience in, I had that internal dialogue conversation probably external talking to myself. What would I do? And I just would start another business. I would just start again.
L: We'll start one together. Do one together.
M: Oh my God, yes. Don't even tease me with that. I just gotta get you to move to Arizona cuz I'm not staying on in the southeast. Sorry. . I love you, but I'm not.
L: I get it. I get it.
M: Okay, so we started before I hit record and I was like, "Q3 sucked" and you said, "yeah, Q3 sucked for me too." Obviously, we missed our Q3 call during then. I was swamped and not in a good way, and it's made me reconsider some things about how I'm gonna run Side Hustle for 2023.
I'm not shy. I don't hide the fact that I make tweaks between every round and this is part of this, my experience is one thing and I'll be tweaking, so it was busy-ness and overwhelm for me. What was your Q3 and why was it not so great?
L: Yeah, I also wanna say I've spoken to a lot of people, and not just Q3, but 2022 as a whole has been a dumpster fire of a year for a lot of people.
In fact, I just went to this conference recently and my takeaway was that the fact that my revenue will be the same at the end of 2022 as it was for 2021 is a victory and that most people are seeing significant declines. I just wanna put that out there. Even if we're just holding steady, that is a win.
M: Do you think that's economic? Is it the economy, or is it they're tired and they're not launching as much or they're...you were talking about before you hit record, they're doing things the old paradigm way and haven't made shifts. What do you think?
L: I think it's probably a combination of all of it. I think given what's going on right now, not just in the US but globally, inflation is an issue and I think even if inflation is not directly impacting a person the overall tenor of our environment right now is one of anxiety and uncertainty and what's gonna happen next.
It's very hard to feel confident about making decisions when everyone around you is "oh my God, this guy is falling." I think there's some of that. I think there's some of - people just being exhausted and burned out because they've been doing this old paradigm, but they're not quite ready to step into something new.
I think there's a lot. I think there's a lot going on and actually when I look at my own experience, and this is why Q3 sucked for me, I've been dealing with a lot of health stuff. My physical health became my priority in Q3.
I think each person has something going on in their life that has been a major distraction or deterrent. I think we're all just collectively like, "ugh," we're all just exhausted. I think it's very hard to say yes to something new when we're all in this perpetual state of exhaustion and anxiety.
M: I think, how beautiful that you've built a business for yourself that isn't tied to seeing an hourly client, and that when you needed to focus on your health, your revenue is still gonna be the same for 2022 as it was in 2021. It's not "oh, I don't see a client. I don't get paid."
You're fighting through sickness or pain or whatever. Which a lot of clinicians do. That's part of the reason why we burn out and stuff. It's because "If I don't see this client, I don't make revenue."
L: That's right. I am so grateful for the systems and structures in my business because they were there to support me during a time when I really needed it. I didn't feel like I had to go out and do another launch or find another client.
It was like, "No, what I have is working. I may not be seeing the growth that I have before, but that's okay." Sometimes we just need a year of a plateau and that plateau is enough to support us. That was absolutely my experience.
M: It's really funny because I don't ever really know how much money I made until I do all my books because I don't do my books every month. I probably should, or I probably at this point should just pay somebody but I just do it all at the end of the year.
I take three days and I just sit in front of the fireplace and I have tea or whatever, and I just do it. I almost like it that way because it becomes a little ... I don't go anywhere, so I don't want to say retreat, but it becomes like a little practice almost where I'm reviewing what I spent and what I made and all that stuff.
I expected 2021 to be less than 2020, but it was more, and I was like, cool. I blew myself away. I fully expect that this year will be less than 2021, if not right around, the same. But for me, it's more about range.
I feel like there's a 100K range, a 150K range, a 200K range, and the 250K range. For me and my goals, which again, I've shared very transparently on the show, as long as I'm over 250K, I'm fine.
If it's 263 or 279 or whatever I'm not really caring about that, but I know what my benchmarks are in order to have the cash and the forever house account and all of that stuff. Really, 250 is my benchmark. So we'll see. I can come out and let you guys know what it ended up being when I do my books, but, as long as I'm over that, I'm good.
L: You're good. Yeah. For me too, I know what my numbers are. I do my books pretty regularly, but I am the daughter of an accountant. My mother would be terribly disappointed if I did not do my bookkeeping.
Also for me, it alleviates my anxiety to know where I'm at in a given month, even if my numbers are not where I want them to be. Just knowing that it's "okay, what am I gonna do about it now?"
M: I think that's one of the beautiful aspects of how and why I set Side Hustle up the way that I did is it's 12 months of payments for a nine-month program.
Even though I'm not doing the actual math and knowing what, because I still sell Space Holder and I have my Side Hustle schedule course and all those things. Those, I don't even really count that in my revenue.
I really look at what am I making from Side Hustle for the year and then I see everything else as a bonus. Which again, probably not, don't listen to me. Do things the way Lee does.
L: Do things the way that worked for you. Marissa, you have found an approach that works really well for you. It is not the wrong approach, it is your approach and it might work for some other people too. Just like my approach is working for me.
M: Mentally and maybe, I dunno, part of that mental load that we all keep my business mental load, mentally I know pretty well where my numbers are. It's just not entered into my accounting software and my reports aren't run every month.
I think if I didn't have basically a year's worth of revenue already determined by November/December, then I would be a little bit more paying attention to it a little bit more. With Rooted, it's not gonna be that way.
L: Yeah, you're gonna have a very different experience at first and then you will get to a point where it's probably gonna be very similar to what you have now.
M: Yeah. I was running a spreadsheet yesterday because I'll launch quarterly, but then somebody who comes in, for instance in Spring, they'll have, the 10 months of payments for that year, but then they'll still be two months of payments the next year.
Then, for someone who comes in Summer, it'll be seven and five, and then for someone who comes in Fall, it'll be four and eight. It's like there's this holdover revenue and once I get to a certain level number of enrollments that holdover revenue will be the 250 and then again, it'll be like everything else is gravy.
But it's gonna take some time to get there because it's a volume-based offer instead of a touch-based offer. What else was going on in Q3? Do you wanna talk about health stuff? Were there any wins or anything to celebrate in Q3 for you?
L: Honestly I think we touched on the fact that my business was continuing to operate, even though I was dealing with my own stuff and I'm pretty transparent about it. I had been feeling like crap for a while.
I've been working with a functional medicine specialist for a few years and we did another set of labs and they just didn't look good. She was like, "I think you need to go even deeper." The woman who I work with is a nurse by training and a functional medicine specialist. I adore her.
But she was like, "I think you probably need to work with a physician as well" and so she referred me to a D.O. who is also a functional medicine specialist, and we ran some more labs and basically I was diagnosed with Hashimotos, which is an autoimmune disorder. It affects the thyroid.
It's one of those things where there's not really a cure for it. You just have to learn what your triggers are and how to live with it. I think any time you get a diagnosis - and Hashimotos is one where it is controllable.
It's treatable. In the grand scheme of things, at least the way it shows up for me, it's not the end of the world but it does have an impact. It required me to make some significant changes to my nutrition and all of the self-care strategies in order to manage it. I am largely gluten-free now, and I am moving towards dairy free and I'm just gonna try that.
Yeah, I know. It's yours too, so you get it. That initial transition was not fun. It was hard. I was angry and I was sad.
It took me a while to wrap my head around it and then I went to the grocery store, I went to Publix and I started looking. I went in saying, okay Lee, you are gonna have permission to buy whatever foods you want in support of this new lifestyle that you're adopting.
So whatever it is, if it looks fun and interesting and it's gluten-free, dairy-free, all of that, you're allowed to buy it. I thought it was gonna be like three or four things I went into... Publix is great. My cart was full.
Marissa, I kid you not, I started crying in the checkout line because I was so relieved I thought, "Okay, I can do this. There are ways that I can nourish myself." I think five years ago, 10 years ago, yes, it would not have been the case.
M: I started eight years ago because Sawyer, we were nursing and she just was crying and crying. This was before... we didn't get Sawyer's diagnosis until she was two months old. This was those first weeks and I'm just trying to nurse blah, blah, blah. I'm just trying to, everything, and people were like, "go."
My doula actually, she was like, "go ahead and do an elimination diet. It's not fun, I'll help you." She had to do it with her kids and stuff. She has six, I trusted her very well and she guided me through it, but even eight years ago, it was hard. It was really hard to find anything decent.
It's gotten a lot better and I've gone back and forth. My thing was in Texas, so this was after Logan was born and I had started my business and wasn't paying attention to my lifestyle or my energy, and that's when I had an adrenal shutdown.
I've shared the story before where I blacked out and luckily Logan was napping in her crib and Sawyer just played lovely on the floor when she could have done crazy shit. I'm just really glad she didn't. But from then on, I'm pretty diligent about it. I don't do it well during the holidays because that's when I find it really hard is traditional foods.
I want my grandma's stuffing and you just can't do it gluten-free. I want the pumpernickel bread, but I notice immediately within 48 hours. I notice the difference in how my face just puffs up, like the way I feel, and how sluggish I am. It's like night and day.
L: It is, and that's been what's interesting is because, like, I'm not gonna say over the last three or four months, I've been a hundred percent gluten-free because I haven't. I'm also noticing that gluten in some forms is okay, and in others it's not.
I'm also coming to the realization; I think corn and I just do not get along. I think even though corn is gluten-free, it's not for me. Part of this is experimenting and trying to figure out "what can I have?" There are some forms of dairy, sheep-based and goat-based; I'm fine with that.
M: More gentle.
L: But going through that process, as takes a lot of mental bandwidth and a lot of energy. That's why I was so grateful that like I had these systems in my business. I don't wanna say they're on autopilot, because I mean I'm still involved.
But knowing it's like I have to do this, and that's it, and the rest is taken care of. I had the mental bandwidth to invest in my health and to start to figure this stuff out because of how I've set my business up. For me, I'm thanking past Lee for that work and that was a huge win.
M: Yeah. Yeah. The question of capacity has come up. I'm working with Asha Frost. I'm working with her. She's an amazing indigenous woman who is running a program that I'm in right now called Harvest, which is about we started with unwinding, unraveling, and deconditioning work.
We're right now in the middle of some healing, some inner child stuff, and then in December, we do some forward movement stuff. I forgot what my point was in bringing her up.
L: We were talking about mental bandwidth energy.
M: Oh yes, and she's—every call—because we have group calls and then I paid for the upgrade graded package, which got one-on-one calls too. She just keeps asking me about capacity. Capacity.
It's interesting because that wasn't a word that was in my vernacular before, but I'm really loving it and using it a lot right now. It's like knowing when you have more capacity and being able to optimize and maximize that. Then also knowing when you just have low capacity.
Part of this, if you menstruate, can be on a monthly basis where you're on in your cycle. Even with you, when you pre-Hashimotos or when your health was good and you were at one productivity level, and now acknowledging that your productivity level might be different, I won't even say lower, just different, right?
L: Yes. Can we talk about that for a second? Because that's been a huge part of my healing journey. I'm six or seven years into owning my own business now.
There is still this ingrained belief that if I am not clocking in and out 40 hours a week, I'm not really working full-time, and it doesn't work. I think that speaks to that kind of patriarchal, Protestant work ethic, all of that.
While I almost felt guilty when I would tally up the number of hours I worked in a given week, and maybe it was 20 or 24 or 15 or whatever it was, and I'd be like, "that's not 40." I would justify it by saying, "yeah, but I think about my business all the time, right? Like the mental energy. I'm working 80 hours a week. Let's be honest."
But there was still this idea of "it's not enough. It's not enough." That ingrained belief came face to face with this Hashimoto's diagnosis and the realization that I have to be very mindful of my capacity of how I expend my energy because if I'm not, I'm gonna pay the price later.
It's allowed me to really embrace this idea that full-time does not have to be 40-plus hours. Full-time can be whatever I need it to be.
I've just, I'm on this journey now of really redefining my relationship with time and if anything, maybe that's the silver lining of this Hashimoto's diagnosis is it's given me not an out, but just like a way of saying, "yeah, that old way is not gonna work for me moving forward."
M: I love that you just brought that up because it's even language that I've used before is full-time income, right? When you can make a full-time income from your side hustle, but what does that even mean? That means what? A 40-hour workweek salary is what you're expecting?
It's all arbitrary. I saw this meme, I think it was actually on a tweet or something like that. I don't remember, but it was like, "On this day in 1908, Henry Ford invented the 40-hour work week" or whatever and then the comment below it was like, "fuck you, Henry Ford," or whatever.
It's like this is all made up. It's all made up and we've gone along with it for three, four generations now.
We think that's the way it's supposed to be, but it was constructed. I think that the point of entrepreneurship is we're giving ourselves the ability to do it differently and the ability to do it "on our own terms."
But there's still so much crap that comes up with that that we're still working against. Oh, what would my dad say? What would my mom say?
When I told, when my mom found out how much money I make, you could see part of her was, like, really proud. But part of her was aghast. "What? What are you doing with that much money?" I'm like, "saving it. Supporting my family."
L: All of those things.
M: Having fun, I don't know.
L: I think that idea of judgment is critical. I have that too. It's "what will people think? Am I allowed to make a full-time income working part-time hours?" and that's there, but it's the judgment of others, but it's also how I was judging myself.
At some point, you just have to be like, what do I really want here? And what's going to support me? What's going to allow me to feel good physically, mentally, and spiritually, while serving and supporting the people I care about? That can be my clients, yes.
It can also be my family. In this idea, it's embracing this holistic approach to business so that I have a business that serves and supports everyone. My clients my people, my family, and me.
M: We glossed over this whole old paradigm, new paradigm thing, because you and I, we know what we're talking about, but for the listeners, part of what we're talking about here is this new paradigm of we're seeing a shift in online business where it's moving away from...
One of the ads that I was telling you about before we hit record was like, "my coaching business made 1 million in one year without sales calls and without launches. You can do it too."
That's the shit that's not working anymore, and that's the old paradigm stuff. The new paradigm stuff is the conversation that we're having right now. How much capacity do you have to work?
Also, I think the flip side of this is, what money do you actually need and want? Our friend Megan Hale talks about this too, and it's funny because her and I .. .she talks about the magic number being kind of 250, and that has been extremely true for me.
That was the number, that's what I said: "as long as I'm above that number, I'm great" because it's that number that allows me to have my savings goals, put money in my kids (they're not really college funds, but ) their funds.
Take my family on some vacations and stuff like that and be generative and give back and donate to the causes that I want to donate to and still feel completely fulfilled.
Everybody's number is gonna be different. For some of us that might be a hundred k, that's all I need. That's what I need. For some, it might be 450, 500, 700, whatever. But instead of just … the old paradigm would be like, seven figures is the new six figures.
That was the messaging we were seeing in 2019/2020, right? That would be old paradigm stuff. New paradigm is; what's your number? Not only what's your capacity to produce, but what's also your number that works for you?
L: Yes. I've been having conversations about this with other people using some different language, but I think it all comes back to this idea; we are facing a paradigm shift and it's fascinating to me because I think we are moving back towards a more individualized approach to business.
For years it's been about Evergreen and no sales calls and closing the DMs and all of that. I think consumers are becoming hella savvy to that.
They don't wanna be just shunted in someone's funnel. They want that experience that is personal and where they feel connected to the person behind the program. Which, to be fair, you and I have been talking about that for years.
M: For years. Yes. I teach this, sorry, go ahead.
L: No. I was just gonna say I don't mean to say evergreen is bad, right? I think there is a time and a place for it, but I think it became over-emphasized to the exclusion of these other ways of building a business and connecting with your people.
Hopefully what we're doing is we're finding this balance between the two, where we have these systems that can support our businesses, evergreen, autopilot, all of that, and there's a mechanism for that high-touch interpersonal interaction that people are craving. That's the new frontier of business.
M: How to blend all of that masculine and selling from our feminine, which is this. In the conversation we were just having, I teach my students who sell $20/month memberships how to have higher-touch launches.
Does it feel completely counterintuitive to what you know the gurus are saying? Absolutely, and is that worth a $20-a-month membership? Maybe not in terms of "wow I'm only (if you do the hourly math), I'm only making $10 an hour" or whatever. Does it feel worth it? Maybe not. But does that customer feel they're in the right spot?
Is that customer way more loyal to you and your brand? Is that customer going to then be a referral source for you? You spent an extra hour with them, but they brought you five more people because of that extra hour, right?
There's just, there's so much to being...I like how you said, individualized, there are many roads to the same end result. I've been talking about in terms of integrity, bringing integrity back to it, but I think there's even more here in terms of intention and value. There's a lot here.
L: Absolutely. Juicy stuff. I think that's what I'm so excited for in 2023 too, is to see how these things take root and then bear fruit moving forward.
M: Something you voxed me the other day around the same conversation was relationships. I know this is something that you do really well and I've asked you, I'm like, "can you teach me?" and you're like, "I don't really have..." this is something you don't necessarily have a system for.
I'm like, "do you have a spreadsheet where you're like checking the people off and like how you follow up with them?" Building relationships, we can call it networking or whatever, but I think it's more than that. Deeper than that.
But you'd said that was one of the big takeaways from this conference as well, and it's also something that you just do so naturally. Can you share a little bit about it?
L: Thank you
M: Selfishly, because this is something I'm trying to learn how to do.
L: Yes. Relationships are at the core of every successful business, that's a hill I'm willing to die on. If you don't know how to cultivate relationships with people, you are going to have a very difficult time achieving success.
Marissa, I think you don't give yourself enough credit, because I think you do know how to create and foster and nurture relationships. I wanna push back against that a little bit, but I think it comes down to showing a genuine interest in other people, getting curious, asking questions, and allowing for silence, giving people a space to feel heard and held. That's for me, what I do.
M: And what everyone listening knows how to do, and probably discounts as a skill or discounts the value.
L: Yes, and please don't because I am in a group of people where I feel in this conference I went to, I felt like I was in the minority because I'm surrounded by these extraordinarily successful business owners.
So much of what we were talking about was data and funnels and analyzing and so forth. I gained so much from being around these very cerebral, analytical thinkers. That is not my preferred method. I am definitely more the intuitive feeler like Myers Briggs and NF all the way over here.
I was surrounded by a bunch of people who probably were more like S & P's, and there's value in that. What I realized was that I was minimizing my value in this group because I was not this thinker-analytical person.
I can do that. I know how, it's just not my default. It wasn't until I shared something in this group context and I received a lot of feedback and interaction about it that I realized, "oh, my perspective matters."
The fact that I bring this intuitive feeling sense to it, especially in an environment where that's not the majority, that's important. I think for me that is how I build relationships. It's through that NF style. That is not the only way to build relationships, though.
I think it comes down to knowing what your strengths are, knowing how to use and leverage those strengths to build relationships while being mindful of the areas where you're not as strong, you're blind spots, and figuring out how...
It's not necessarily compensating, but it's more like, how do I make space for that while building these relationships too?
M: When you choose somebody to have a relationship with, are you doing that intuitively too? Are you just saying, "oh, I feel drawn to this person?" Or do you say, "oh, they (just making something up) have an audience size of this, or I know how many followers they have on Instagram. We're brand aligned. I think that we would be a good partnership, or somewhere in the middle.
L: What a good question. I'm sitting with that for a second. I suspect it's probably more of an intuitive gut process for me. Just in terms of how the relationships start and evolve.
Of course, if there's an opportunity for it to be mutually beneficial, where I can get in front of their audience and they can get in front of mine, that's where the strategic piece comes in and it's let's explore what that could look like.
I think in a successful business, that strategy has to be present. I was literally just teaching about this inside the collective a couple of hours ago. That my whole, I think what makes my take unique is that I'm not saying you have to be data-driven and you have to do this, nor am I saying you have to be intuitive and just let it come to you.
For me, it's about blending both. It's where strategy meets intuition. That's where the magic happens. I think when I build relationships, it's probably both. I probably lead with that intuitive side, but then there's this piece of me that's "okay, what opportunities are available to both of us now that we've made this connection?"
M: Because I remember, and I've shared this story before, but when we first met, we didn't even have a coffee chat or anything. We met for some kind of collaboration in my group or your group or something.
I just remember like literally falling in love with you on that meeting through Zoom because of our energies, it was like magic coming through the screen. I was like, "this is a woman that I wanna be, I want in my life for the rest of my life." I just felt that over I get teary over that.
L: I get teary every time you say that because it was so mutual. I felt that too. It's maybe that's what soulmates are. Where you both see yourself and the other person and you feel seen by that person.
M: I love that you just said that. We (Side Hustle), graduated a couple of weeks ago at the time of recording, but one of our final conversations about that, on that topic was "mates of the soul." I follow one of my mentors is Sabrina. Sabrina Lynn. She runs Rewilding for women.
If you guys are in the 'woo' stuff, she might be fun for you to check out. On one of our circles, she was talking about soulmates in terms of mates of the soul. In taking out, because when we say soulmate, we get caught in Disney Princess and we get caught in romantic.
But when we flip it and say "mates of the soul" that can be friends (platonic), that can be our business. There's a… I feel like Rooted my offer. I feel like it is a mate of my soul. It is a piece of my being externalized. I feel that about Side Hustle too.
L: I love that. It's an expansion of how we define it and it's really an expansion of intimacy because I think that is what's there and we hear intimacy and many of us immediately go to the romantic piece, and I hope there's intimacy in romantic relationships.
But there is also intimacy in friendships. In business partnerships like there are in a therapy client relationship. There are all sorts of ways that we can cultivate intimacy in our relationships. I think that is what we're speaking to.
M: I love that. Looking forward to the rest of Q4, do you have plans for this year? There are about, what? Six weeks left at the time of recording. Do you have plans for that?
L: Yeah, I'm taking three of those weeks off it. It had dawned on me today. I went for a walk and I was like, "oh my gosh. I think I only have three working weeks left this year."
M: I know, I take three months off. If I wasn't launching Rooted, I norm, like last year I had three months off. So it's a big deal. What are you gonna be doing in your next two and a half weeks?
What are you...have you thought even—I know you have—but have you thought about January and what are you looking forward to for Q1?
L: Okay I am really excited because I just stood up another cohort of my mastermind and what,
M: Mastermind is easy to sell, right? You were just like, "Hey, who wants it?" and people were like, "I do."
L: I extended invitations, I had conversations, and the people for whom the timing was right, they said yes.
Again, can I just say too, it's not whether the program was right or whether I was right, it was timing because I spoke to several people who were like, "I would love to do this, and now is not the right time."
And guess what I said? "You're right. Okay, then it's not the right time. We're not gonna do this. Now let's revisit this when I stand up my next cohort in whenever, March or April."
M: Yeah. I literally just got the same email, because I'm doing the wait list for Rooted now that I'll start enrolling. This'll come out...this comes out the week that my cart is open for Rooted.
L: This is exciting.
M: Yeah, we're recording earlier obviously, but at the time of recording, I am talking to the waitlist for Rooted, and someone just replied and said, "I am 100% in, but I'm not gonna be in your winter cohort because of Christmas and the holidays. So can you tell me more about the options?"
I said, "Here's the price point. If that does work for you with your holiday budget, I would love to have you. If not, join us in March. Join us for spring" and she's "I will see you in the spring." I'm like, "okay."
Is there a chance that she doesn't enroll in the spring? Of course, there is. But just the fact that there's faith in the offer, faith in me, and it just becomes the timing issue.
I talk about hunting strategies and farming strategies. A lot of people build their businesses just on hunting. Going out, and you only eat for that day. Like when you're farming, you eat for the season or for the year or for whatever.
L: I love that. I love that. I think too when you respect people's own sense of "this is right for me, but not now" and we don't fight that, and we don't try to convince them that "no, now's the right time and here's why you should join and let me incentivize" that doesn't feel good and people know it.
To honor your client, your customer and to trust in their knowing is a powerful gift that we give them as part of the sales process. I think that you're investing in that relationship by being patient.
M: Okay. I wanna take a little detour, but it'll be fast. Then what's your take on scarcity and urgency? Because I'm thinking about the students who just launched, the students who just launched in Side Hustle a couple weeks ago, had the best launches out of any year, even pre-covid.
There was one or two pre covid, but as a whole, they have the best launches. Some students found that scarcity and urgency didn't make a difference and some students really did. I still think it's gonna be audience-dependent, but I think the way that we do scarcity and urgency is going to be changing. I'd love to hear what you think about that.
L: Yes. I think about legitimate scarcity and urgency versus manufactured scarcity. When we manufacture it, we're coming up with this arbitrary deadline and we're trying to convince people that they need to take action before then or else. It feels very FOMO.
M: Or it's just, "there are only 20 spots" and then you log it in, and there are 70 people sitting there, right?
L: And you're like, "wait, what?" Yes, that doesn't feel good. Versus "I can tell you right now, I will be increasing the price of the collective in 2023, that's a fact. It's going up."
If someone is coming to me and they're saying, "I wanna join, but I'm not sure now is the right time" and this has happened, I've responded and said, "it might not be the right time. Let me make sure you have all of the data you need to make a fully informed decision."
"Here's the price today, and here's what the price will be in 2023. So if you want to wait until 2023, you're welcome to do just know it might be at a higher cost." Am I manufacturing urgency? I hope not. That's not my intention. My intention is simply here are the facts. Do with them what you will. I trust you to decide.
M: Yeah. In Rooted, here's my plan for that. Our friend Taylor and our friend Leslie - Taylor will be contributing the wait list bonus. Then Leslie and I are planning something for the solstice. That'll be the regular enrollment bonus, and then for the spring equinox, there'll be another bonus.
There will be things that you will get if you join that round, that will make it enticing to join that round, but you're still gonna get a cool bonus if you join for summer solstice or Fall, you're still gonna get cool bonuses. It's just, is this bonus the one that you want?
L: Exactly. No, I love that, and that feels additive. It's not like what, it's what you will get in addition to. But I think it's ultimately, I hope that my people feel a sense from me that I only want you saying yes to my programs if you are all in and it is the right time.
M: That's actually something I learned from you.
L: Oh thank you.
M: I remember reading your emails or maybe it was a conversation we had where I was like, "how do you word this email? I'm sure you sent one out" and you said something like, "I'm here to help you make the decision whether it's a yes or a no."
I had never done that before. I was always like, I'm here to help you come into the program. Yes, I wouldn't say aggressive, but more assertive.
L: Here's the reason why. It's not meant to be manipulative at all because I have worked with people, and I've had people come into my programs or agree to one-on-one coaching and they should have been a no.
It is the most draining experience to work with someone who isn't really all in or who has doubts or for whom it's not the right time and there's a lot of distractions going on, that is an energy suck.
I can honestly say, if no is the right answer for you, I want you feeling really good about saying no because that will serve you.
Ultimately it will serve me too. I don't want people coming into my world if the timing is not right or they're not fully invested. I only want true 'yeses'. For me, helping you reach a no that you feel good about, I just trust that's gonna serve all of us.
M: I know. I think that's so beautiful too. I've made that mistake in the past where I've had people come in Side Hustle and on the sales call, my body is 'no'. Normally I'm just like, "Okay, cool. It was great to talk with you" and I just don't send them the proposal.
In one particular case, the person was like, "Okay, I'm in, do you want my credit card now?" and I was like, "no, I usually send a proposal."
She's "okay, send it to me," and that energy on the call was the part of why I was like, "I don't want this person in the program," but I ended up sending it and the whole time I'm like, "she's not gonna come in. She did not like that call as much as I didn't like the call, there's no way."
I literally send the proposal, payment in full comes in 30 seconds and I'm like, "shit." Sometimes, it's a no, and it wasn't a pleasant experience for either of us. She didn't enjoy the program and I didn't have the best time having her in the program.
L: Let's be clear, it's not because there was anything wrong with her or with you or with the program. Just from a purely neutral zone. It was not a fit. Not all money is good money and when it's not a fit.
M: That's a lesson I've had to learn.
L: It's hard, especially when you're at the point where it's "I need to bring some revenue in or my business might not make it." To say no to someone who is ready to sign on the dotted line and pay you in full is one of the hardest things you will do as a business owner and one of the most important things that you will do as a business owner.
M: Getting 'woo' with it though, is that ever a growth opportunity or a healing opportunity? Let's say somebody does squeak past your marketing, squeak past, they get in, do you see it as valuable to be like, "oh, here's a refund, I don't think we're a fit," or do you try and work with that person?
L: In the past, I've tried to work with that person. Sometimes it has been really good. It's been an opportunity for both of us to grow. Growth is not always fun. It's often painful, but in the long run, there was a lesson to be learned by staying with it.
Then there are sometimes when I should have just cut bait. Again, I think it's more about what opportunities are available to you in the now.
Okay, you've made this decision you've taken this money from this person, even though there was a part of you that was like, "don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it." Guess what? Here's where you're at. This is your present. What are you gonna do about it now?
Then it's about looking at "what is available to me? What can I learn from this? In light of that, how do I wanna move forward?" In some cases, it's gonna be like, "this is gonna challenge me and it's gonna change me, and I'm gonna stick with it. I made a commitment and I'm gonna see it through."
In other cases it's gonna be, "nope, it is going to drain me and exhaust me and deplete me to the point where I won't be able to show up for other people in the ways I want to and I need to just say no."
M: Yeah. I like what you just said there because I feel like I've had that. Sometimes I am anxious avoidance, so sometimes I'm just like, "all right, bye." I will cut too soon when there could have been tremendous growth potential for me.
As a facilitator, as a coach, as a leader, whatever, but I like what you just said. That can be a really great criteria for me going forward. Is this penalizing the other students or is this impeding my ability to show up for the other people who also committed to me and I committed to them?
That could be a really great benchmark for me. I appreciate that. That's a nugget I'm totally taking.
L: Excellent. Excellent.
M: Yeah, I love that. Okay, quickly cause I know we're getting to time. What do you have coming up, what are you prepping for?
L: Okay, so I am currently revising and reviewing my curriculum for the certification program.
M: Tell us about what that does, who it's for.
L: Yes. This is my coach training program. If you are interested in becoming a more powerful masterful coach this is for you. This is my program that is accredited by the International Coaching Federation and ICF completely changed their accreditation standards this year, which is a good thing.
I actually really love what they're doing now to ensure that these programs are ethical and service driven and like it's a good change, but I had just gotten my program accredited...
M:...you had just done it and then you had to do it all over again.
L: Yeah. They were like, "guess what? There's a transition process for you to do now." I put it off, oh my God. I put it off and put it off and put it off and put it off.
M: And then you bang it out in a weekend
L: Pretty much yes. That's exactly what happened because that's how I roll. So anyway, I have submitted the program for the re-accreditation. It can take 16 to 24 weeks to get approved. Now I'm in this holding pattern.
I am optimistic that my program will be fully accredited under the new guidelines in if not January, Q1, so that I can launch a cohort of the certification program and the changes I'm making to it.
I'm excited about it because previously it was one long 125-hour training program, which is a lot, that is a huge investment of time and energy and money for everyone involved.
I am moving towards a three-phase program where there will be phase one, which will probably actually be largely self-study. There will be videos and exercises and activities, and there may be a couple of live calls, but it's gonna largely be like, do it on your own.
That's gonna be about 30 hours and it's gonna be great for someone who wants those basic coaching skills, who may or may not want a credential, but just wants to brush up on their coaching mastery.
Phase two is going to incorporate peer coaching and mentor coaching. Combined with phase one, you'll have everything you need for that first level of credentialing with ICF.
Phase three will be more of an in-depth process, more peer coaching, and more one-on-one live training so that you will be prepared for the second level of credentialing with ICF, the professional certified coach.
I feel like this three-phase structure is going to help people determine "what do I really need now? How much time, money, energy am I ready to invest?" It's gonna allow me to meet my clients where they are.
I'm really excited about introducing this and I'm also refining the curriculum itself so that we're bringing more intuition into it and marrying that with the strategies, and here's how to coach, and here are the frameworks, and here's what to do.
It's about learning the fundamentals but also figuring out how you can bring your own wisdom and knowledge into the process because that is what separates you from everyone else when it comes to coaching. I'm really excited about that.
M: I was just gonna say, so when someone is a Certified Clarity coach, what will they get? But you just answered that right at the end. My follow-up question then is; can you have affiliates? Because I wanna be an affiliate for that. If you're able to with ICF.
L: I am able to, yes. More to come on that I would love to have you as an affiliate.
M: Yeah. I know a lot of my students, for sure, they're like, "what's the difference between coaching and therapy?" They want a primer, maybe that stage one that you were talking about where they can confidently say, "okay I am doing coaching right now and not doing therapy." But sometimes they don't want a certification.
A few of my students then do wanna go on and get certified, so that could be a really great bridge or a really great compliment to the work that we do inside Hustle.
L: Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm very excited by that. There are still some logistical things I have to work out because both phases two and three require peer coaching.
I will need to make sure that I have enough people in a given cohort so that everyone's needs can get met, but I'm just gonna trust that's gonna happen.
Also, when I launch it in 2023, I have already been thinking about, "all right, what are my goals in terms of numbers of enrollees?" and so forth, I'm keeping it really small, like phase two, if I have six people, I'm golden. If someone wants to do all three phases, if I have three people, I can do that.
Micro, again, it's this micro-launching strategy where you're just inviting the right people in. It does require a lot of trust in the process, but like I just have this sense that's the way to go with this. I'm really excited about it.
M: It's almost like the certification is like an ascension model in itself within your whole business model, and it fits in nicely as a continuation of other programs that you do too, so that's kinda cool.
L: Yes and again, I know we're coming up on time, but something that I've been playing with in my business and I'm excited to see how it shows up in 2023. We talk about content repurposing, you've got a podcast and the different ways you can repurpose it.
I'm also intrigued by offer repurposing and how you can use components of an offer and, like, maybe break it apart and have it be a separate offer and maybe a lead into the larger thing. I think this idea of offer repurposing is really interesting and it's something I'm starting to play with as well.
M: That's something I've done a lot of in terms of I'll run a program live and then I'll also have a self-study version. I did that with cathartic marketing, my first program for therapists.
Then often, my workshops that I'll run, which I usually upsell something off the back end will be a piece of a module or a lesson or something like that, I hardly ever like doing something from scratch.
L: That's exactly right, and that's really my takeaway from 2022, especially in light of the Hashimotos and all of that. It's like, how can I be elegant in how I approach my business?
And when I say elegant, that's the streamline, it's the simplicity. It's the systems and the structure so that it just creates this really intentional, elegant approach to business. I haven't chosen a word for 2023 yet, but the word elegant is really coming forth for me, but not in the traditional sense, in this new paradigm.
M: I just got an image of like lace and not people think of lace as delicate, but often lace is woven together to be really strong,
L: It's intricate. There's these intricate patterns too. That's very thoughtful, but yeah. I love that. All right, so 2023, January, Q1, what's in store for you?
M: Yeah. I have a little bit coming up in Q4 first, like what I was saying is normally if I wasn't launching Rooted, sometimes I feel like I shot myself in the foot...again that capacity question that Asha keeps asking me, because normally when I move to the nine-month side hustle, so for two years now I would have three months off.
We graduate the first week of November, then I have all of November, all of December, and then most of January off because we come back that last Monday of January. That was really nice last year. I have not had that this year whatsoever because oh, I just decided to launch another business, Rooted.
At the time of recording, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, I am currently talking and engaging with the people who've already self-selected to be on a waitlist. They have a higher level of interest in Rooted.
I'm doing that very high touch, very warm through video, through personal reach out, all kinds of stuff. The engagement has been wonderful. People saying, "I'm so drawn to this."
It's: I know the concept is there. I know the offer is validated. I don't know yet if people will enroll because it's the first time I'm selling it and I sold a workshop or tried to sell a workshop for October and it didn't sell. That was cool...I think it's cool now.
When it happened, it wasn't cool, but it was cool to show that to the Side Hustle students like, "Hey, I made a shot with a brand new offer with a brand new audience, and it didn't fly." I think it would've almost been worse for them if I had sold 50.
Yeah, it could have been really inspiring, but at the same time, it could have made it look way easier than it is. The fact that I had a "flop," I think was actually better for them to see. So I'm nervous going into the upcoming enrollment because it could also flop.
I have quite an audience for it, which was accidental. I'm sharing that in a separate episode of how I accidentally grew the Rooted audience and what that means. But basically, I have a big audience that's pretty cold, so I don't know if this winter enrollment will be what I want it to be.
But going back to the farming that we were talking about, I completely trust in my ability to nurture this audience. Then eventually they will come into the program. So yes, they might not be in the winter cohort, but they might be in next winter's cohort and that's cool. Currently engaging with the waitlist.
I have a, it's a challenge, but I'm not liking that word in the Rooted space because it's not right, it's not the right word. I'm playing around with "Journey," but I have a five-day thing, a five-day experience coming up.
As you guys are listening to it, that happened last week. I have no numbers to share with you or anything because in real time it hasn't happened yet, but in listening time it was last week, so we'll see.
I've already had a lot of people be like, "this is so cool, I'm excited for this." Again, just replying to the welcome email, they're already hopping in the Facebook group and being like, "I'm excited.
I can't wait." A lot of engagement around the topic, but will that engagement translate to enrollment? I don't know. That's what's going on in Q4.
I was meditating the other day. I think I told you this, I told you guys this. And 52 episodes of a Rooted podcast just downloaded. It was like channeled.
So that may be coming. Hailey and I have a lot coming in January in terms of redistributing my time and my energy into both places, both businesses because it has been hard for me to have one foot in two places.
I didn't think it would be hard, but again, bringing that capacity word, it actually has been hard. That might mean increasing what I pay her and actually paying her for one and a half or two packages because it's two businesses. So we'll see. We'll see what that ends up being. But I wouldn't be able to do this without help from her.
We met before our call and I was like, "I'm gonna be clientzilla today" and she's "what do you mean?" I was like, "I have two things that I have to have done in two weeks," and I've never done that to her before.
Normally, we're six weeks out on projects and stuff. I was like, "I'm so sorry" and she's "it's okay.” This isn't a normal thing" and she was like, "we'll figure it out."
She's building my thing for Lizzie's Bundle. She's building all that for me. I'm like, "it's due Friday." She's "it's okay, I'll figure it out." I'm like, "Okay, thanks. Cause you know this way better than I do and it would take me five times this long."
I'd rather pay you for the hour and a half then do take the 10 hours it would take me to do it. Then Rooted sales pitch, not built yet, but written in my notes app.
L: It'll get there. It'll get there.
M: But it's not built. That has to be built by the 27th of November because the wait list enrolls on the 28th. That's the shit show.
L: Yeah you've got a high-ops tempo couple weeks coming up.
M: I feel like it's been that way since August. We didn't really get into my Q3, but this op tempo is not sustainable and it's coming to like the end of its life. That's what January is gonna be about is just Hailey and I hunkering down and figuring out these new systems now that I have two businesses.
L: I can't wait to hear how it goes. We'll have to check-in.
M: Yeah, we will. Will you be a guest on my Rooted podcast?
L: I would be honored to be a guest.
M: Okay, because I already have you written down.
L: Good. I'll be there. Didn't even have to ask.
M: Thank you. Any last word of wisdom as we wrap up 2022? This will be our Q4 end-of-year message. Then where can people find you?
L: Okay. I'm gonna borrow someone else's words of wisdom here. This is admittedly taken out of context, but there's a quote that I have really been embracing and it's Zora Neal Hurston, and I may be paraphrasing it, but essentially she said, "there are years that ask questions and there are years that answer them"
M: Oh my God, I love that.
L: Isn't that amazing? I think 2022 for many of us asked more questions than it answered. I wanna share that just to suggest that this is a normal process, even though it might feel uncomfortable that if you are someone for whom 2022 asked more questions than answered, you're in good company.
It also suggests that future years may answer them, and so to just hold on, have faith beautiful, it's gonna be okay.
M: Can you Vox me that woman's name?
L: Yes. Yes, I will.
M: I'd like to also quote her.
L: I will do that. I'll send you a Voxer, and you asked about contact, really my home base is coachwithclarity.com. You can find everything about my podcast, my book, all of that stuff there. And I'm @CoachwithClarity on Instagram, TikTok, pretty much all the socials.
M: Awesome. Thank you so much. I love you.
L: Oh my gosh. I love you too. I always love our conversations.
M: Alright. Was this a year that asked questions or was this a year that answered them for you? I thought that was just a cool and profound quote that Lee shared with us, and that is definitely something that I'm gonna be reflecting on and journaling on. I don't know. I just thought that was really special.
As always, you can find out more about Lee at coachwithclarity.com and I really think that at least that first tier of her certification that she was talking about could be great for therapists who want to coach or either have a group program where there's a coaching component and really wanna make sure that they're not doing therapy, right?
I think that's a tremendous resource for you. Again, we'll link all of that in the show notes, but I just wanna say happy 2022 and sign off with you for the year, and as always, you guys keep on rising.
