Feel Good About Money with Megan Hale
Think about money for a second: what emotions do you feel? Anxious, excited, pressured?
Hustle culture is the bane of a psychotherapist’s existence. As holistic healers, we know a work-life balance is crucial to a fulfilling existence. We know we need our self-care days. But when it comes to money, are we applying the same key principles? Our financial life, just like our relationships, can suffer when we practice unhealthy attachment styles.
We talk about all this and more on this week’s episode of Empathy Rising featuring my dear friend Megan Hale. She’s been enriching my life for years since we both pivoted from the psychotherapeutic space to entrepreneurship a few years back.
Megan shares the wisdom that reflects her heart, passion, and knowledge about how to build a healthy relationship with your $$$ in this podcast episode.
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Full Show Notes (Transcript)…
ML: Hey, Risers. Welcome to Episode 96 of Empathy Rising. I'm really excited about today's episode because I'm bringing on someone who has been a mentor of mine over time and is also somebody that has turned into a friend. She is just a really deep, rich kind of person. I always get goosebumps when I talk with her. She takes me to a totally different place, and she's just a really profound person, and I'm so glad that I met her. And I'm still glad that she's in my life.
So today we're going to be talking to Megan Hale. Megan is a former psychotherapist and side hustle coach, and she helps people get rooted and grounded in their money so that they can really make entrepreneurship into what it is they want it to be.
She's going to talk to us a lot about money journeys, entrepreneurship journeys, growing as an entrepreneur, growing as a moneymaker, and what that looks like. So I'm really excited to dive into this type of stuff today.
And so Megan, if you could just give us an introduction, tell us a little bit about you what you're doing now, and also a little bit about your journey to get here.
MH: For sure. Thanks for having me. First of all, I am so excited to be here. For everyone who is new to me, I am Megan. I'm a former psychotherapist and now a profit-first business strategist and money mentor.
My journey has really been starting in the field of psychotherapy and also being a military spouse. And opening up my first private practice, which was an adolescent dream of mine ever since I sat in my first Psych 101 class in high school. I was like, This is what I want to do. I'm also experiencing therapy for the first time when I was 15, going through depression and anxiety and remembering, sitting in my therapist's office: Wow, you get to help people like create happier, healthier lives. This is absolutely what I want to do.
And so I did all of those things. I opened a private practice, made that dream come true, and also knew that I was going to be closing my private practice the day that I opened it, which is a little bit weird for most people. But I know, where as a military spouse, we're going to be moving. So that was really when I started to think about what my future looked like, and if I wanted to stay in therapy if I didn't want to stay in therapy, what would that look like? And that's really when I found the world of coaching.
A lot of my clients that were coming to me in private practice were experiencing depression, anxiety, relationship issues. And one of the things I noticed is getting into the work. A lot of my clients were struggling with authenticity and really living true to who they were. Understanding their values, understanding their purpose. And I started to get curious.
I'm like, I wonder if other people struggle with this and they're just not coming into a therapist's office. And so that's when I really started to branch into this other modality called coaching, and I made the official league back in 2015 when I closed my private practice. And I have been on this path ever since.
ML: Yeah. Okay. I have a couple of follow-up questions. So you said you were inspired by the fact that they got to help people live happier, healthier lives. What was that call for you? Did you feel it? Did you experience it like a calling? And what was your draw to that: Helping people become happier and healthier?
MH: I think it's two things. One, I think I was really motivated personally, to figure out what that looked like for me. So to understand myself and what does it mean for me to live a happier, healthier life. And two, I was one of those people that others would just come and tell their stories to. Like I just happened to be one of those safe spaces for people to really come and talk about really hard things to.
They asked for my advice, my perspective. And so I think both my personal curiosity around that, and then also just the natural tendency to hold space for other people... those two things coupled together was like, yeah, this is definitely... I'm meant to be doing something, helping others live into their potential, live into their truth, live into happiness and success on their own terms.
ML: Yeah. And then the other thing that I think is fascinating. 'Cause you, your transition from therapeutic coaching was like a year ahead of mine. And right then is when online therapy was a thing, like barely a thing, but there was obviously no regulation about it. People were like starting to whisper about it in corners. And now obviously it's a full-fledged thing. And with the pandemic, it's like the only thing.
So with hindsight, we can never say for sure, but with hindsight, knowing that online therapy was going to become a thing, would you have stayed more in the therapeutic field, or would you have still transitioned to coaching?
MH: And that is a really hard question. I think I really don't even know. I don't know. I don't know, because I think if I hadn't have had that obstacle of moving around a lot and having to change states and wanting to be, 'cause I think that's the other thing too. Like when I started my private practice, the thing that I did not foresee is that was actually me taking my first step into entrepreneurship and being able to have full creative reign over how I marketed my business, what I wanted to create, how I wanted to help people.
There was all of this infinite possibility to open up for me. So the idea of doing anything other than entrepreneurship, like that was a no-go from that day forward. That was going to be the path. The way that I was an entrepreneur, though... I don't know. There's so many guests and both sides of the work for me.
I will say, helping people with the work that I do now, that's so much more strategy-focused and really helping them create a relationship with money that feels so good. There's something so uniquely healing about that, that I don't... it would be hard to choose looking back. I'm like, Yeah, I would never step into this.
I just think money is just such a topic that has really found me that I don't think I would have found otherwise. So all that to say, I'm really glad for the path that I've taken. And I don't think that I would change it now.
ML: Yeah. So I have a funny story, and I think I might've told you this at the retreat, but I'm not sure if I told you this story, or if I told you the full story.
So the listeners know I have a coach named Jacqueline. We've worked together off and on for about almost six years now. That's when I came into the online space, and Jacqueline hosts a podcast called Go-To Gal, but before she used to host a podcast with another mutual acquaintance that we know named Jessica called, all up in your lady business.
MH: Yup.
ML: And it must have been 2014, 2015. I heard you as a guest on the show and you were saying, "I used to be a therapist and I'm transitioning to coaching." And this was exactly like what I was going through. And I was like, Oh my gosh, someone else has done this.
Because at that time I had a little bit of guilt and shame about leaving therapy, leaving people who needed help, who I refer to it as being, like, below-baseline needed help in their functioning. And stepping away from that.
And we always talked about, like, the worry in grad school, but I felt like back then coaching was almost like... moving even further into the worry. Like, helping people that maybe didn't really actually need help. And so there was a lot of guilt around that, and hearing you on that podcast, I was like, Oh, there's somebody else who's made this transition.
So it was just like a wave of relief. So I emailed you. And I was like, Hey, thanks for your episode. It was really cool to hear. And I was trying what I was trying to do, and I'm so nervous. It's the very first time it was trying to ask you for a coffee date, like collaborate and build a relationship.
But I didn't know how to do that then. So I was just like, Hey, thanks for your episode. You were really inspiring. And then you wrote me back and you were like.. oh, no, probably you were so, like, friendly and open, and then I just got too scared to follow up and ever ask you to meet me for a coffee chat.
MH: Oh gosh. Oh my gosh. That must've been in 2015, so I remember when we recorded that episode, I was living in Alabama then. That was actually my first year of branching out into coaching. So I was super new or vulnerable. Anytime you do anything new, like... it's... it brings up all the fields. So receiving emails like that, for sure. We're like that. Those are the crumbs.
And so for anybody who is listening, yeah. Those tiny little conversations, those tiny reach-outs those mean so much, especially when you're new, in that beginning stage of having somebody see you and say, "Thank you." So thank you for sending that email.
ML: What I think is really interesting is you're, like, I was new and I didn't know what I was doing, but I didn't get that from you at all. By being a guest on another podcast, I perceived you as an authority. I perceived you as an expert. And so that's the stuff that we talk about on this show.
MH: A lot is like the visibility and the power of putting yourself out there, even though I'm sure you were nervous. I'm sure it was something new for you. You touched me as a listener in the audience, to be like, I perceived you as... there's no way I thought you were new to this. I love it. And I actually remember that episode. We'll have to link to it in the show notes.
But Jacqueline distinctly said to me, like after we got off, she was like, "So we talk like all the time. Like, there's literally... like, we never shut up on our podcast, talking about this concept of enoughness." There were so many silent pauses as they are like taking in this topic. Of like just what it means to cultivate worthiness. And it was such a powerful conversation then.
And I think oftentimes, when I'm doing interviews now, people are like, "How did we get here to the money? Like, how did we get here?" And it's this is how all the dots connect. Because there's like a worthiness thread that comes in with our relationship with money, but there's also a huge spirituality thread that comes through too. And so my journey has started off with talking about the concept of enoughness, which I did feel like I had a lot of subject matter expertise, coming from the therapy world.
And then moving into the spiritual space, talking about what it means to be both wild and holy, and really holding both sides of who we are and giving ourselves permission to be both, and all of the layers that we have to work through with that, and how that now has created so much more space to really choose what money means and how we want to hold it.
So it's so interesting looking back and connecting all the dots and to the present.
So it's... wow, I could have never foreseen that. That this is where it would have all ended up. But it all makes so much sense, though, when you do look back.
ML: Totally. Yes. Unpack that journey just a little bit. Because a running theme on this show is we talk about creating your first offer, and something that I also talk about is this decision point where you feel good enough. You can sit here and outline your offer and really outline it 14 times. You eventually have to put it out there. You don't know if it's going to sell, because you haven't asked for a sale, and you also don't know if you're going to enjoy facilitating that program until you do it. And that can lead to pivots.
Like, I didn't get it right the first time. Hi, normalize pivots, please. I started literally right as a copywriter, like writing people's blogs and writing people's websites. And now I teach people how to build an online business. I always knew side hustle was where I wanted to go.
MH: Okay. The outward reason was I didn't know if my market was ready for it. I didn't know if they would buy it, but really it was... I didn't know if I was ready to deliver it. So I had an end goal in sight, but there were several pivots along the way.
ML: And you've made several pivots, my God. So many. Maybe sharing, like, what your pivots and what your offers have been, but also talking a little bit about the process of pivoting, the process of evolving.
MH: Yeah. I honestly think the first pivot was really making the shift from therapy to coaching. And I... I've had this conversation many times, especially with therapists who are considering doing something different, or doing something new: that it doesn't have to be either, or it can be both. And for a little while, like, you can explore what this other modality feels like. You don't have to make any choices or marry anything right now.
But I think the thing that has really carried me through, and especially... I talk about this with a lot of the inner work on the enoughness revolution and still on Wild and Holy Radio is that I think that we all have an inner voice that is pointing us to something that feels more true.
And the really challenging thing about this voice is that it often it is going to ask you to do something that doesn't make logical sense. And you don't know, like, you could only see like the first three steps. If you're like, Are you sure you like these first three steps?
That's it. Like, that's all I get. But I think I have really learned to listen to that voice and to be immediate to it. And it has led me to so many amazing places.
I think the challenging thing about pivoting in the public space, especially like running a business, is that for me in the early years, I've been an entrepreneur for six years now.
And many pivots in those six years and the first three years, especially like trying to find my thing and having to pivot and pivot and pivot some more... there was this fear that people were going to perceive me as having no idea what I was doing, no idea what I wanted, no idea what I was really good at.
Like, I was out there questioning in the face of everyone. And that was a really vulnerable moment. I can't even tell you how many messages I have gotten from people who've been part of my journey for the past, like, six years. They've been winning for six years and they're like, "It has been so amazing to watch you take those courageous pivots and bring us all along with you." And it gives me permission to not have it all figured out. And just take that next step and take that next step. And honestly, I think like that... that's the magic.
It would be great when we started our business if we just knew that it was this thing and we just went all in on it and never changed, and for some people that is their journey, that hasn't been mine. And I don't think that there's any right or wrong way to get where you are.
ML: Yeah.
MH: So as an observer, because I followed you for a long time and I followed other people, my observation on that is: there are people who I learned from, but probably won't ever buy from because they've made too many pivots, but those pivots have been two things they've been disjointed, and they've been... I don't know if inauthentic is the way I want to say it, but it's... now I'm a vet.
ML: Now with you again, as my observation, my perception is that the category of what you do maybe has changed, but your spirit and your authenticity has always been there. So it never felt disjointed. It literally felt like an evolution to the next thing, rather than, oh, like complete stop and start or stop and start. And so I still always had trust with you. I still always wanted to follow you and wanted to see that, versus other people who've made a pivot and it's just been either jarring or it's, oh, you're just teaching that because it's the next cool thing.
MH: Yeah. I think that's the other thing too, is that this journey has really felt like a deepening. That the more I've done, like my own inner work, more layers have opened up for me to explore and to do my work around that. And I think, looking back at my own personal journey, money has been such a huge thread.
Like, even in my familial story that I have carried forward, I had a very prominent figure in my life, my paternal grandmother, who was very much seen as the financial guru in the family and just having such an affinity for wanting to make her proud and wanting to learn from her and soak up her wisdom.
But then also being an entrepreneur, money comes right up to the surface. I mean, like nothing else and nothing else. And so I think it was always destined for me to step into this, but I had to go and do all the other things first. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about what I do in the money space now is that.
Just because that's my journey and all these other pieces had to come first. It doesn't mean that that has to be other, people's starting, that we can actually do all of this work in tandem at the same time. And it's my job of really distilling these processes, these frameworks, this wisdom to teach other people how to do that in much less time.
ML: Yeah. So yeah. I appreciate you saying that so much, because it really has felt very vulnerable at times to make the pivot and it feels so new and so different, but also, like, it's just another light layer that's opened up and it's time for me to go and explore that publicly.
MH: Yeah.
ML: So for people who are just, like, just on the cusp of releasing their first offer, unsure if it's right or unsure, like maybe perfectionism is getting in the way, maybe imposter syndrome is getting in the way... knowing what you know now about pivots and evolution and deepening, do you have any wisdom for them?
MH: Yes, I have tons. I would say the greatest gift that we can give ourselves as entrepreneurs who are creatives at heart, like that's who we are, we are creating something that does not exist yet. We are tapping into our wisdom and our gifts, and we are putting structure and systems around those things. And that's very vulnerable in nature.
If we can give ourselves the permission to explore business from a place of curiosity and exploration, and lean into data as our friend, right? Because I think that's the thing is that a lot of us are scared of getting the data because of what the data is going to show us.
And if we can really lean into data as being something that's showing us what is working, what is not working, and not make it mean anything about us. You will be unstoppable, but it's the story we make around the data. It'll be... it'll get us into a hard place for sure.
ML: Wow. I resonate with that a lot right now because I have my first evergreen offer out there. And I didn't expect it to be, like, a million-dollar click funnel type, bro marketing type of thing, but I was expecting to make more consistent sales from it than I am right now. And you, what you said is hitting the nail on the head. It's like I've been reluctant to look at the data, because the data is going to tell me it's not working the way I want it to.
MH: And I am making that mean something instead of looking at the data and being like, Oh, okay, it's a simple tweak at this part of the funnel. I can fix that right now.
ML: Yes. I'm just like, Oh, I don't even want to look at it because I suck.
MH: I think the industry does a really poor job of normalizing how long it takes to get something to convert at the level that you want it to. And when it goes into an offer being successful, there are so many variables that go into that.
There's the name of the offer. Does that connect with your audience? Does that connect with the desire that they have in their heart and the result that they want to create? What about the messaging?
Like, the story that you're telling about the offer? What about the structure of the offer itself? How easy is it for people to fit that into their lives? There's a timing issue. There's a pricing issue. Are we clearly communicating the value? Are we positioning this offer correctly? Are we meeting our people exactly where they are so they can see, like, now is the time for me to jump into this, to get the result that I'm after?
There's so many things that go into it. And I think one, you only learn that by doing this for a very long time, because in the beginning stages, you're going to make it about you. Like, boss, we just do. That's what we do. And then we grow and we build more mastery running our business and putting our heart out there.
And when something does not work out the way that we want it to, then we can get curious, like, Okay, so what is not working here? And you, it being something about you, should always be the last year. Cause I promise you, there are 9 million things that need to come before that, before we get to that it's something about you that's not converting.
ML: I love that. One thing you said a couple of minutes ago about entrepreneurship and the money story, I'd really love to dig into that. I think I... I can't say there's one reason why people go into entre, entrepreneurship, but I think there are a few that are more common.
I think, like, lifestyle and choosing the life you want to live working, how and where, and when you want to work. I think that is a big one. I also am coming across more and more neurodiverse people in the entrepreneurship field of, you know, I need to think about work in a way that makes sense for me and my brain.
MH: I'm seeing all of that, but I also think, the money story is huge. Whether that's what brings you to entrepreneurship or whether that just becomes part of entrepreneurship for you. I shared on the podcast a couple of episodes ago, I was raised by a single mom, and the first year, my first full year in this therapist business, I started coaching moms and then I made the pivot to therapist.
So I've had several pivots, you guys, but my first full year in, the therapist-facing business, I made $68,000 and that was more money than I had ever seen in my life. It was more money than my mom had made, single mom... it was more money than my grandparents had made generationally. It was the most money that anyone in my family had made.
And it did a few things for me. Like it, there was just this wash of relief. Oh my God, I've made it. Like, $68,000? I made it, man. There is nothing... I... that's double what I live, what I've ever lived off of.
But then came some guilt. Oh my God, I made more money than my mom ever made. There was this weird stuff that came with that. And then also this one is a double-edged sword. I was like, If this is possible, how much more is possible.
And so that's been like really great, but also I, for me personally, I don't... I want to define for me what enough is. And for me, right now, with our goals, that is in the high one-hundreds-ish kind of thing. I'm not trying to share exact numbers right now because I don't have it nailed down, but I know for me, when I was like, Oh, million-dollar business, sky's the limit, it actually put a lot more stress on me.
ML: Yeah.
MH: Rather than having a defined number, that is my enough number.
ML: Going back to this enoughness, so I'd love to explore a little bit of that. What do you see? What do you help people define and come to?
MH: Yeah. Yes. I think that enough number is huge. It's actually a core piece of what I teach inside the money map, which is a profit-planning tool I've developed.
One of the things that I think happens in the entrepreneurship space is that we're talking about money more than probably any other field in my experience. So on one hand, that's a really positive thing, because it's starting to normalize money as being a less taboo topic to discuss. And on the other side, there is a lot of misconception around the numbers that are being thrown around. We don't really know exactly what they mean.
People are choosing numbers to equate success, right? When that's really like somebody else telling you what success means for you, which I do not like at all. And it's actually been a really challenging thing for me to navigate in my marketing, because I don't really care if you're making multiple six figures or seven figures in your business.
What I care about is what are your personal dreams? How much do those dreams actually cost? And what is not only the lifestyle that you want to provide for yourself, but also the business that you want to build? And so every single business is going to be unique. It's going to have its own needs, and it's also going to need its own margins in order to run in a sustainable way.
And so a six-figure business can look lots of different ways for lots of different people. But what I care about most is that you feel financially supported. And so if we don't have real numbers that we're working with, a couple of things happen.
One, we can pull a number from the sky, hoping that it's enough.
And then we actually start making that money and we're like, Oh, this actually isn't enough to pay for my dreams. Or the opposite happens. We pull a number from the sky thinking this is going to equal success, and we actually look at what we want to provide for ourselves financially and realize, Oh, I actually don't even need that much money.
And I'm putting all this financial pressure on myself in order to get there. And so I like to help people ground into their personal success numbers. We start with a good number, which is your enough number. And then we stack on your personal dreams, which create your better and your best and so good, better.
Best goals is like one of my favorite topics, because it's not just, "I want to make a hundred thousand dollars a year," or "I want to make a million dollars a year."
The money might help you calculate, like, down to the dollar, and you want to reach these goals. You need to make $231,000, 768. And you're like, Whoa. But it's a very specific number. That means something and meaningful money that will change your world.
ML: Yeah. Yeah. I get goosebumps when you talk about that, because that's almost exactly what I've gone through. In 2020, bringing on support inside of side hustle. I went from a solopreneur making six figures, meaning I paid taxes and overhead, and everything else came to me to a person with a team of three.
And the amount of money I'm making is the same, the amount of money I'm taking home is substantially less. So then it becomes the question of... there's a lot of people doing a lot of things for me now. And so I'm doing a lot less. So taking home less money doesn't really bother me on one hand, because I'm doing a lot less, so cool.
But at the same time that opens up the whole, like, working hard equates to how much money you make, which is a whole other thread of this conversation. But also then, well, if I want to keep taking home what I brought for myself, but now I have a team of three, I have to make so much more.
So when you said the word financial pressure, that describes the whole second half of my 2020. And I shared on the podcast too, that I was coming out of a burnout in December of 2020. And this financial pressure is a lot of what contributed to that.
MH: Yeah. I think that's really common too, because nobody really talks about what that means to step into, like, in a sustainable way. And so we can bring on the team members that drastically shifts our workload, but then we don't talk about, okay, are we operating within a healthy margin as we bring those team members on? And so we might need to stagger that growth process a little bit because all of these things like work together.
On the backend of your business and your margins and all of those things. And so that's where profit first really comes into play. So I integrate that into the money map. So we're not only creating your good, better, best goals, but we're also calculating. The margins that go into those numbers. So it'll tell you exactly how much you can afford to bring on team.
If you want to be making a certain amount and it'll also do the opposite. So if you want to bring on a certain amount of team and he wants to be making a certain amount, it'll show you how much you really need to be earning in order to support both of those things.
ML: But I think that's why I love this topic so much, because it was very holistic. It's not just about what the business needs, but it also what you want and what you need and all of those things. And what really struck me, and what I felt was really profound, was that you said about grounding down into your money needs or grounding down into your money numbers instead of just pulling them arbitrary, really, from the air and saying, This is a good salary, or this is what success means, but really actually going within first to then come out with what these numbers.
MH: Yes. And I think on a spiritual level, this is one of the pieces that I talk about. Like, living your financial truth and being in financial integrity.
So if you are letting someone else dictate what success means to you financially, you might hit that number, but it won't feel fulfilling. Or the other thing will happen, that you're consistently pursuing somebody else's version of success instead of really tuning into your own. And I am all about living fulfilled. Like, a fulfilled life.
ML: And so that's going to ask you to really tune into: what you most value, what you most care about, what you want your life to look like, all of those things. And we just do the money work of putting real numbers behind it.
MH: Yeah. Yeah.
ML: And I think clinicians come to this... maybe with who's going to say a whole another suitcase of baggage, but our industry... we're the most underpaid master's degree and just all of this stuff that comes from the therapeutic industry. So can you speak on that? We all have our own personal money stories, family of origin stuff or whatever, but there's also the money story that comes from maybe before you were an entrepreneur, and what you made in corporate, or what you made it working at an agency and things like that.
MH: So there's other angle of the money story, for sure. And I think the money story is, like, super complex. And I think this is also a reason why I felt really underserved, I would say, in the money-specific space, because when people talk about and money story and money healing, it's... that's a lot of things.
And so if you don't know exactly what you need to be working on in order to actually take the steps forward, we can spend years swimming in this money story box, because it is so layered. It's like we can just keep on pooling layer upon layer.
And so one of the things that I really like to do is having those grounded numbers and looking at your business model and your business structure and all of those things, that's going to tell you what the shifts that you need to make in order to make the money that you want to make. And sometimes that's around visibility. Sometimes that's around pricing, whatever that is. And then you get to look at what makes me uncomfortable about getting visible. What makes me uncomfortable about charging more? And so now we have so much more clarity around where the inner work needs to be.
ML: Yeah.
MH: But in regards to the money story, we're really talking about our trans-generational family patterns. So all of the things have been handed down through our own family line. We're also talking about all of the systems that are operating in our society. So any sort of like patriarchal system is going to have its own money messaging around gender, around capitalism, like any of these things, right? These are very big constructs that show up in our society as a whole.
We also have specific money stories that show up in our specific profession. So for those of us who are in the social worker, therapeutic fields, I would say like maybe 90%--like I don't have any stats, I'm just pulling from this the air--90% of us went through grad school and heard something along the lines of "don't get into this field to be rich." And so there's already this idea that we cannot be helpers and healers and also wealthy, and that to want wealth, to want financial empowerment or freedom, is actually creating a conflict between this other side of you.
Which, that's a whole other thing to work through.
We also have religious and spiritual messages that we carry that aren't only in our micro-culture like the institutions in which you were raised, but these ideologies have also seeped into the macro culture as well. Of talking about wealth being greedy of wealth, being dangerous, like wealth, being bad, all of these things.
So there's a lot for us to unpack and to look at. But I think for me, I want to normalize this. We all have money stuff that we have to work through and money is something that is always going to be a part of our world. It's always going to be part of your life. It was before you were even born, like when he was always operating in the background, creating opportunities that you were born into, or a lack of opportunities and all of those things.
And so I like to think about money just like we do any normal human-to-human relationship, that if you want to have a healthy relationship with something, this is something that you need to be communicating with often that you need to be spending quality time with that you need to be getting really intentional with what you're co-creating together to make sure that y'all are sharing same values, like all of these things.
And the minute I started thinking about money in those terms, it's like a whole new world opened up for me.
ML: Yeah. I remember being fascinated. I followed along with your challenge last year, about when you were referring to attachment styles. Very clinical, very therapeutic, like speaking my language, speaking my audience lens language. But instead of attachment style parent-to-child, which is how I've always... the way I've always... the context you were talking about money with: Are you anxious, avoidant with your money? Are you saving your money? And I was like, "Holy crap. This is mind-blowing."
MH: It's... I don't want to say basic. That's not the right word, but it's simple. Yeah. It's mind-blowing at the same time. I think that's the other thing too, is that there's so much language out there around money mindset, money mindset, money mindset. And so many of us have this assumption that money is a mental construct, and it is, but we experience money on multiple layers than just our mindset and our thoughts.
And our self-dialogue alone. And so money for me is sematic. We have a physical experience when we think about money: Plan for money co-create with our money, manage our money. And so starting to tune into what our physical responses are around money is really essential for creating a sense of safety.
So if you don't get your body on board, that this is a safe topic for you to engage with, to talk about, to dream about all of those things, you can think a certain way all day long. But if there's a disconnect between what you're thinking and what you're physically experiencing, then that hasn't totally jelled.
And so what we know from psychology is that oftentimes when we're feeling emotionally vulnerable, we have physical sensations in our body.
ML: Yeah.
MH: And so starting to apply that to what's happening or showing up with money, That will totally change your world. So we all know, with vulnerability, that we tend to either have that anxious response, where we ruminate over something, we stress about something. We play scenes through our head over and over again. We might micromanage things in order to get that sense of control, or if we are experiencing vulnerability from another side, we actually try and avoid it altogether. We try to remove ourselves from that elevated situation and just pretend that it doesn't exist because ignorance is bliss, but neither of those are very empowering places to be.
ML: Yeah.
MH: Or you can be this, like I am, where you experienced both. You're just swinging from this pendulum, from the anxious to the avoidant. And neither of that is allowing you to really stay in the room and feel like you're in your power when it comes to money. So just like we can shape an attachment style as we grow into adulthood.
We can absolutely create secure attachments in our relationships. We can do the exact same thing with money, and it's really important that we do, because that's the thing that gets our body on board. That it's actually safe to talk about money, to pursue money, to want money, to manage it, to hold it, all of those things.
ML: Yeah. I'm like, seriously, I've had goosebumps, like, half this conversation. It's just, and to watch you like the listeners, you can't see, you might be able to pick up on her voice. But when Megan just starts talking about the things that she believes in, like, she just lights up, you can just see this in her face of just... this is like her soul or whatever, just coming out. You can tell that she just really believes in this stuff.
So for my listeners, starting a side hustle means a few things. It means this lifestyle, cultivation, co-creation that we've already talked about of like maybe being able to be traveling a little bit more that their license doesn't allow them to do having a broader reach and a broader impact.
Not only being, like, limited to the state they're licensed in, or maybe a couple of states, but still like many local markets instead of a national or even global market.
So reach and lifestyle. But sometimes they literally need to pay off their student loans. They're swimming, they're swimming, and they're student loans, or sometimes they're like... they want to maybe build wealth or pay off a debt or start accumulating, saving, and things like that.
So I see, money comes into this a lot in a lot of ways, in either creating that lifestyle or also sometimes just literally wanting to generate a little bit of extra cash. What do you think about having a main income stream of like therapy practice? Some, most, of my listeners are already in private practice. Some might still be at an agency and then building their private practice on the side or whatever. But what do you think about multiple income streams? And is there... I'm trying to think how I want to phrase this. Is there ever a conflict when income streams are coming from multiple places, or is there a way to be open to receiving or having money come to you for multiple sources? Or can you talk on that a little bit?
MH: Yeah. I think in my role that really comes down to: What systems do you already have in place? Because for income stream to really take off and to perform well, and for that to be grounded in ease, that's typically going to create require some systems in place to help facilitate that.
And so when we're thinking about broadening our income strains to, let's say a side hustle, we want to be really mindful of what we're creating and how many things that we're selling. Because every single thing that we create, every single thing that we sell is going to have a lot of pieces that go into it.
For that to perform in the way that you want it to...
So typically for most people that I've talked to, especially therapists who have private practice, and then they're growing into this other income stream, a lot of them have some systems in place for marketing their private practice. They have that system for bringing in new clients.
And because that's already created that, you don't have to spend a whole lot of energy or attention in drumming up new business. Like, that's already happening for you. And so I want you to imagine that you're going to now use that freed-up energy to then go and do this other thing. And so from there, I think it's really around getting clear on how much money you want to make.
First and foremost: What do you want to offer in order to make that money, and not offer 9 million things very specific on maybe just one to two and do those really well? So do less better. That's a huge philosophy.
ML: I love that. And you hit the nail on the head a lot, because so many people come to me and they're like, I have an idea for these five courses, and they're like, "I want to teach moms of teens how to do this. I want to teach couples how to talk to each other. I want to teach this." And then it's probably all stuff they've done in session for years.
MH: They might... some of them have a very niche practice. Some of them might have a more general practice. And a lot of times it's "I could totally teach a course on that." And I'm like, "Okay. First of all. Let's see if there's any cohesion between these five courses. Are they all for the same person? Are they all saving, solving the same problem, but in a different way? Perhaps instead of five different courses, you have a membership site. What if we looked at it from that angle? And what if we like try to maybe combine or condense?" Because I firmly believe in selling one thing.
ML: Yes.
MH: I think about what's really helps your therapy practice grow too, right? There's typically only one way that you're going to work with people in your therapy practice is going to be a one-on-one model and how people are, like, what you helped them do might shift dramatically.
But you're focusing on one offer specifically. And I would probably even bet that you're really specific on the people that you help and what you help them do. So even that is like clarifying your ideal client, and clarifying how you work with them. And so that is simple and simple tends to be scalable.
So the more we start to create more complex business structures, the more your energy is going to be frazzled. Like, we're going to feel stressed out. So we can actually be much more discerning about how we're setting that up from the get-go. And I think that's where mentorship can really help, because therapists do have such a broad skillset.
There's so many ways that we can help. There's so many things that we can do. So really starting to get clear can sometimes feel a little constructing.
ML: Yes.
MH: But on the other side of that is so much expansion.
ML: Yeah. Oh, I love the way you bring that up because that's exactly what I see. Niching, for lack of a better term. Niching down, always triggers scarcity. And then once they see how powerful having a specific niche is, then it's... it really skyrockets, it makes everything else more possible. So I love the way you explain that for sure.
MH: Awesome.
ML: Do you have any kind of parting wisdom for us? Anything that you want to share? And then also tell us where we can follow up with you.
MH: I know my audience is going to be so interested in this attaching to money, this generational processing of money, experiencing money, and just a totally different way.
ML: For sure.
MH: I would say that the quicker you can prioritize your relationship with money, the more successful your business is going to be, because what I see most of the time, especially for our heart-centered entrepreneurs, we try and not make it about the money.
So all it's not about the money. You don't need to be about the money, but we end up making it more about the money because we end up having either revenue, leaks, pricing issues. We struggle asking for the sale. There's some real big money issues that show up if we try and not make it about the money.
So what would it be like to actually create a safety around money actually being part of the conversation and that doesn't have to be triggering? It doesn't have to be negative. It doesn't have to be anything heavy or shaming or anything. It just gets to be money because money goes to be what we make it.
So the quicker that you can really prioritize your relationship with money, I think the better off your business is going to be. But the other thing that I want to offer too, is that money really opens up a lot of things. So it allows you to start creating powerful change in the world that allows you to direct money, to do things that are in alignment with your values to amplify what those look like.
Money is a very powerful vehicle for social change and also for your own experience of your own life and the family that you're providing for and all of those things. I would encourage you to definitely come and check out my feel-good money space. That's all-around helping you create meaningful money and sustainable money and money that's really aligned with your values. That feels so good.
And there's a couple of different ways that I do that. One is on the strategic side, which is all around the money map and helping you get clear on your personal success numbers and your business structure, making sure that's all set up right, sustainably.
But then there's also an inner work side and that is really about helping you create a daily practice of meeting with your money regularly that helps you normalize it to neutralize your energy system. So you're not being elevated when you're sitting down to look at your numbers, or to plan for your money or any of those things. And I think it's really having both of these things together that really transforms the way money feels.
ML: That's going to be really familiar for my listeners. It's the reflection and the action. It's the learning and the implementing. And so I really love that you take it from both sides as well
MH: Yeah. Awesome.
ML: Megan, thank you so much for being here and just being able to spend time. Every time I'm with you, I just feel like my energy has elevated. My being is elevated. And so even though we're doing this through the screen, I still feel like just on a total energy high. So I really appreciate your time today.
We'll have all the links to follow up with you and where to learn more about good money and creating this relationship with money in the show notes. So thanks so much for your time.
MH: Thank you for having me.
ML: Oh, my gosh. Like I really took away a lot from that episode. I was blown away by just Megan's depth, and just the way she really talks about money as a relationship. And she applies some of these therapeutic principles that we work with our clients on all the time, and treating money just as another thing that we have a relationship with that we attach to, that we avoid, that we withdraw from... all of that kind of stuff.
I just think it's fascinating.
And this is just a really poignant type of work that we should be doing as business owners. And I think as clinicians and people in general, everybody has a money story. And I think it's just really important to know what that is for you, and know how to work with it, set goals for your money that align with who you are, and just all that kind of stuff.
So something that is really great is Megan is actually going to be alive inside of our Facebook group in a couple of days. So this episode goes live on Monday, and Megan is joining us later in the week on Thursday for a Facebook live.
So if you were inspired by the show, and if you want to ask Megan questions directly, make sure to head over to the Empathy Rising Facebook group, where you can join us as a member, and then you'll get reminders of when Megan and I will be going live together.
So if that's something you're interested in, make sure you join us there. And until next time, guys, keep on rising.
