Megan Gunnell Chats Hosting Retreats

Retreats are a really unique and flexible offer that you might consider adding into your side hustle (I know I did!).

If you’ve ever been curious about running a retreat, you don’t want to miss the recent podcast episode with Megan Gunnell.

Megan is extremely well versed on this topic and has tons of great info to share. During the episode we talked about…

✔️ How to cultivate a meaningful retreat experience
✔️ What it's like to run retreats as a facilitator
✔️ Tips and tricks to running a safe, profitable retreat

Who knows what kind of possibilities you may be dreaming up by the end of the episode!

CLICK BELOW TO LISTEN!

Show Notes:

Hey, risers. Welcome back to episode 138 of Empathy Rising. Today we're diving into a topic that is super interesting to me and something that has been on my heart for a couple of years now, and that is the topic of retreats. 

We are going to have a guest expert talk with us today, Megan Gunnell, who has run retreats for therapists and also for other people, other populations, and other ideal customers for... I think she said over a decade now. So this is something she is extremely well versed in. 

We're going to dive into retreats from the experiential standpoint, what it's like to run retreats, and tips and tricks when running retreats. But also from the business standpoint, we talk numbers, we talk profitability, we talk strategy around retreats as well.

So I hope that this one is valuable for you and something that you can really sink your teeth into. So without further ado, let's jump into my interview with Megan. 

Marissa: Hey, risers. Welcome back today. I'm really excited about our episode because this is something that I have talked a bit about on the show, but I have not yet done personally. And so we're going to have an expert here who's really going to be able to share some cool insights with us. We have Megan Gunnell today on the show, and she's going to be talking about retreats. 

Even when I was practicing clinically, I wanted to host retreats. And so like under my practice, and now I see them as coaching retreats and an offer that you can certainly add either under your practice name or as a separate business entity. So I'm sure we will get into that. But Megan, welcome to the show. 

If you could just introduce yourself a little bit, tell us a little bit about where you're at,you're licensed, if you're still practicing clinically what you do clinically, and then talk to us about this retreat stuff that you do. 

Megan: Sure. Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure to be your guest. I'm a big fan of your podcast. And I'm so excited to be here. So I'm in Michigan, I'm outside Detroit.

I actually still have a psychotherapy practice. I don't think I'll ever give it up completely. I do love my one-on-one clients. I have whittled it down quite a bit from what it used to be. I also built a group practice during COVID, so I exploded with referrals like we all did, and I pivoted to form a group.

So I have three amazing therapists on my team right now, and we may potentially add to that in the new year. But it's been amazing to do that. And then in addition to that, I'm the admin of the thriving Therapist Space book community, which has exploded in growth. And I'm doing a lot of coaching and consulting for the Thriving Will Institute.

And under that, I do my retreats and my workshops and summits, and I have really enjoyed retreat work really for the better part of... I would say 15, 20 years now. So it started very small and it has grown a lot from there. So I'm excited to share a lot of tips with you. 

Marissa: For sure. It's really funny because if you go back to January of 2020, I was like guys, this is it. This is the year I'm hosting the Empathy Rising retreat. And then we all know what happened with 2020. 

Megan: Oh gosh. 

Marissa: I still feel like it is in my future and it will be an offer whether it is something I offer separately or if I wrap it up into a mastermind or another program. But I do think gathering in person is something that I'm really called to do. 

Megan: Especially now, after I think we've been through what we've been through, it's been so isolating for all of us and you can't replace that feeling of in-person connection. There is something deeply transformative that happens when you gather and when you're going through a very intentional process collectively.

So whether that's a one-day retreat or a weekend retreat, but my very favorite are the week-long experiences because there is a true kind of arc and, like, a rise and fall of like the intensity of the experience. 

And when you hold space for a group of people for a whole week in a really exotic place, like Costa Rica, which I've been doing, what, six, seven times over now in the past, 10 or so years, it's been incredible. It's just like they leave there and they feel, like, totally invincible. Totally euphoric. Just like I can do anything. 

I've got all these great ideas and I will say, as I'm talking about that now, one of the tips I can share immediately with your listeners is not to forget the importance of the post-retreat support because I think what makes a great retreat is not only the design of it, and where you post it, and what you're offering, and who's there, and how you set it up. But it's also how you help support people implement and integrate when they return. 

Marissa: Yeah. So when I teach different offers, I say that each offer has its own type of transformation, right? With a self-study course, your customers are getting knowledge right with a mastermind. They're getting mastery.

And with a retreat, I talk about really profound transformational lifelong change. If somebody is going to buy a plane ticket or get in their car or whatever, they're going to leave their home for three days, four days, seven days they're leaving there, potentially their families or kids, whatever they are dedicated to that.

Megan: Oh yeah, for sure. 

Marissa: Also get to get out of their head, get out of their typical space. Be somewhere physically, completely new. And it just opens people up to a totally different type of transformation, but I think you're exactly right. What I've experienced myself leaving retreats too, is you're on this high and then you're you get on the plane and you're that high still there.

And then for me, my kids were even littler than they are now for the last three that I went to. And so it was like the high was still there, and then I get picked up at the airport and it was like somebody popped my balloon. You go right back into... 

Megan: Your stressful everyday life. Exactly. So then it becomes like what feels so possible when you're in this transformative retreat experience where you're like, I'm going to go home and write a book, or like you just get this really big idea.

People will leave and just say I'm doing this, and then they get home and it's oh my gosh, the piled-up dishes, this is like still here for me. It's very challenging also to leave a very sacred and intimate, really transformative experience and then go home to what feels like everyday grocery shopping, like the everyday experience.

So there are things you can teach your guests and invite them to bring into their everyday lives so that they can practice mindfulness and awareness and insight and self-care and boundaries, and gratitude, and all that delicious stuff that we pack into a retreat. You can really translate it back into the groceries and dishes of your everyday life.

And so there's really some power in teaching people how to do that, but you're right. It's that... I love how you said retreats really invite people to transform, whereas mastermind is teaching mastery and a course is self-study. I've never heard it described that way. And that's really a beautiful way to sum that up. Cause it's so true. 

Marissa: Yeah. Each different type of offer has a different promise with it and a different deliverable with it. And so when we're picking the offer our first or our subsequent offers, we should think about what it means to facilitate it and also what the customer gets from it.

Megan: For sure. 

Marissa: So I'd love to take retreats from two angles. Cause I've been hearing you say the word experience, and I would love to talk about that side, but then let's also talk about the business side. 

Megan: Sure. 

Marissa: So let's go experiential first. I was talking to my mom. I'm going to a retreat in Taos in July, and Taos is really close to home for me—Taos, New Mexico, if anybody doesn't know. And it's really close to home for me and I live in the southeast right now with my husband's job. And so I was telling my mom and I'm just like, so I think I'll probably just drop the girls off and then I'll go over to Taos for a week.

And she's yeah, that's cool. That's fine. And she's maybe you should leave them with their other grandparents and I'll come to Taos with you. I was like, that's neat, but we're going to be like chanting. I don't think it will be like naked, but we're going to be like chanting and stuff.

And she was like, oh, I guess I thought you were talking more of a conference. And I was thinking of welcome to come still, but I don't know if it's quite what you're looking for. So can you tell us a little bit about different types of retreats, different atmospheres, or ambiance that maybe you've run or just that you've seen in the industry?

Megan: Sure. So I can speak from just the way I structure retreats. And I'm going to talk mostly today about the Costa Rica week-long experiences because those I believe are just the ones that I think most people are really excited about, thinking about building themselves too. Because if you go back into Marissa's podcast vault, you'll find a great podcast on making a mini-workshop.

And so I really recommend that people, and maybe in your show notes, you could even link back to that because there's a great one that you did on how to build a small workshop. And that's a really good angle on developing this business idea and a tiny way first, and then letting it grow. I started with a one-day retreat like I mentioned, and then I moved into a weekend.

But when I started even doing the one-day retreats, I did it because I was listening to the call of my clients. So my clients kept repeating the same thing over and over, which was: I'm a busy working mom. When is it my turn? I need some self-care. I need a day off. And I was like, god, I'm hearing this echo over and over again in my caseload.

So I thought I should build it, and I also came from a creative background. So I was a music therapist first, and then I got my MSW. So I had this creative life where I was doing hospital integrative medicine for years. So I came from playing the harp at the bedside and doing drum circles and inpatient psychiatry and learning how to do Mondelez and guided imagery.

So all of those creative aspects were really part of who I was down to the fiber of my own being. And then when I got the MSW, I thought now I have the real education and knowledge to take that work even further and support people through more kind of interpersonal growth and expansion.

And so the way I like to design any kind of week-long Costa Rica retreat is all around a theme. So the very first one we ever did, and I say we cause I used to run them with a colleague, and then I started getting brave enough to run them on my own. But in the beginning, I thought, okay, if she can bring half the guests that I can bring half the guests, we can certainly fill it, with the caseloads that we had.

Because you have to remember when you're building a retreat, you have to have an audience, right? So if you don't have a platform or at least a robust kind of client population, or some way of driving traffic to this offer, then it's going to be really hard from a business perspective to fill it successfully.

And I talk and teach a lot about that too when I'm helping people, specifically in a one-on-one scenario do coaching around retreat building. But there is a lot to be said for building your retreat around a theme. And the first year we did it we called it Awaken Your Senses because what we were hearing was everybody was feeling numb and detached and disconnected from what really filled them up with purpose and passion. 

And so we thought if we could invite them to this really amazing paradise, where you cannot ignore your senses, and in fact, you have to lean into experiencing the heat and the sounds of the jungle, and the food, and the saltwater pool, and the yoga stretching on the deck, and all the wonderful things that you're doing truly in a mind, body, spirit way. 

Then we knew that transformation would be possible without even worrying about some of the tiny little details of our schedule, which is one thing that retreat facilitators freak out about all the time.

Marissa: And so do you find... the retreat that I've attended, it was a four-day retreat, so not quite. And I don't think I could've swung a week because I was still nursing. I actually used that four-day retreat to finally stop nursing. And then the second I got back, my daughter was like on my boob.

So I was like that didn't do anything for us, did it? But so four days we... there was no itinerary. There was no real schedule. We just fell into something naturally. Like in the mornings we had a meeting and then in the evenings we naturally fell into a meeting, but me, if I was gonna run a retreat, it would be like, 7:00 AM,  7:30...

Megan: Oh yes. Let me tell you when I first did the one in 2012, this is hilarious, I think I had enough content for a six-month mini master's degree. It was, like, insane. I was like ready for... I don't know what I was ready for. Teaching something way beyond a one-week experience. And I was so worried the entire time that it was not enough. 

And so I had this deep interpersonal struggle going on where I was loaded with material and content, and the schedule was almost over-packed and then I kept thinking, it's not enough, it's not enough. I was so worried they were going to get to the end of the week and say gee, this was really expensive.

And we came all this way, and this is it? But that was the complete opposite of their experience. So what I learned from that is you have to know that when you invite people to do something like this and you build it with a lot of thought and intention, you don't have to over-schedule them.

Like you just have to get them there. And then, like you said, there's this beautiful flow that happens. So I went from this crazy hyper scheduler to the last retreat that I ran in Costa Rica, I literally had no schedule. I knew in the morning I'd want to do that. And then you plan around the weather.

So you like, especially in Costa Rica, you get up early, the jungle wakes you up. The Howler monkeys wake you up and you get up early, you do your yoga in the morning. You have a nice breakfast, you'd have a chance to shower, and then you start your morning programming, and then you have a long break in the afternoon so that people can really soak in what you're doing there. 

And what you're doing there isn't about you as a retreat facilitator as much as it is obviously about them and whatever they're going to get from that environment and that experience. 

Marissa: Yeah, no, it was interesting for me because one of my really good friends, Leigh Shea McDonough, she and I knew each other, and then we were at the retreat together. So that's when her and I have actually met in person. And most of my online friends I haven't met yet. Like Amber and I haven't even met in person, which is crazy cause every single day we talk. 

It was cool cause it wasn't like, hey, I'm going here, do you want to go too? We didn't orchestrate that. We just like in passing, and I said something about wild and holy weekend and she said something about wild holy weekend. And I was like, wait, are you going? And she said I am going. And it was really cool, but so... 

Megan: It always draws the right people. I'll say that retreats always invite the right people at the right time.

Marissa: I just remember I woke up in the morning and I'm like pumping, but she like went out and meditated and all this stuff. So it was like, it was cool to also have to be able to make a vacation out of it a bit. And I imagine... like I went from El Paso, Texas to San Antonio, Texas.

So I flew, but it was something I could have driven if I had wanted to. But I imagine if you're going international and that's part of the draw for the people who are going to buy a plane ticket and have to have a passport and that kind of stuff, that there needs to be a vacation element or vacation feel as well.

Megan: For sure. I think that's something they really want and need. And I think people go on retreat to unplug from the busy, over-scheduled lives we live every day. So it would be a problem if we created an over-scheduled experience for people because that's the opposite of what they really desire.

But that's a big mistake that we make when we're building these. So that's really important to remember. I will add that I did build in my own kind of benefit as a retreat leader in terms of the vacation components. So I think it was maybe the third year. I'm trying to remember now... they've all blurred together.

The third year we went... I did a women's retreat first, and then the second we had a weekend off, and then the second week I did a co-ed retreat and I brought my husband down to do a little bit of facilitation because he's a chef. So I was like, you could do a cooking class. You could do a zip line thing with them, or you could do some sort of adventure with them and I'll leave my part.

You do that. And then the next week, we weren't leading retreat, but my entire family blew down my children, my parents, my sister's family, and we rented an Airbnb and stayed in Costa Rica another week. So I spent three and a half weeks in Costa Rica at that time. And it was hard to leave my practice for that long, but it was so amazing too.

So if you're going to lead these, you can fold in your own retreat, like kind of relaxation and addition before. 

Marissa: Yeah. Cause for the one that I was planning for 2020, I was shopping for beach houses and things like that. And I was like I think I was only planning a four-day event. 

So my ears are perking when you're talking about a seven-day event, but I was like, I would rent the house for the whole week. And I would just do a day and a half before and a day and a half after, and then facilitate like the four days in the middle. 

Megan: It's nice to have that time before and after. 

Marissa: Was it interesting for you? Or what was the process like when you were reconciling, like, I want them to have value. That means I feel like I have to give them things or perform trainings or whatever for them versus like freeing up the time and the space. 

And then you saw, oh, they're still getting value from this. Was there any like... for me, I'd be like, oh, they don't need me. Why did they come here if they don't need me to teach them or... 

Megan: So I still lead things. I lead programming in the morning, and then I do either mandolas or guided imagery, or we do shamanic journey meditation and we do drum circles, and we go to the beach and have a fire burning ceremony, and we let things go there and we do a lot of sacred ritual kind of deep creative work. And we've done mask making and all kinds of cool things. 

So we do a lot of different things while we're there. And I see myself as someone who's... and I'm holding my arms out really big. You can't see me and you're listening to this, but it's just like holding space in this giant, like space holding container older, and I feel like if you didn't have an anchor, a person who was able to do that, then it would be very hard for them to have enough safety to share with one another and process and go through the experience because it really does. 

They do go through this, build them up, break them down, build them up, break up. There's this really big high and low thing that happens on retreat because I think people are giving themselves lots of space and room to feel what they have been numbing for quite some time. And to also reach for things that they have been longing for. 

So retreats give us the headspace and the awe and wonder and inspiration that we are missing in our everyday groceries and dishes life to, like, really reach for something bigger. That's the part that I love holding space for too, but you couldn't really lead it, I don't think, without that anchor person. And so I do see the facilitator as a key component of that, but I also love the freedom and the flow. 

Because you have to also read, I'll say this, you have to read your group. And there were days when I earmarked okay, tomorrow we're going to do this. And I would think about it like, okay, I've got a bunch of tools in my toolbox. We're going to pull this tool out for tomorrow and then I get there and I'd read the energy and think, no way. They're not there. This is they're either too tired or they're too high energy for that, or they're too low energy for that.

And you can feel the vibe of the group and when you meet them really in that moment of where they are, that's when amazing, powerful things happen. Because they feel in a very deep way, fully seen and heard by the experience and by you. 

Marissa: And I mean, who better to do that than clinicians because there's a lot of... the retreat that I'm going to in July is not run by a clinician. It's a coach or somebody in the online space. So that kind of leads me to: Did have you have any additional training or did you feel it was necessary? You're mentioning shamanic rituals and those types of things. 

Have you gone down the path of getting other than trainings in this stuff, or is this just things that you've always you've used in your clinical practice and just brought along with it?

Megan: So some of it I scooped up as a music therapist because I had a really diverse team that we worked with. We had guided imagery experts. You know, working with oncology patients, we had art therapists. We had dance therapists. We had healing touch providers. We had Reiki practitioners, and we just had everybody on these teams with these hospitals, both in Michigan and in Illinois.

And it was really amazing to learn from some of these different tools and techniques. But what I did then was say to myself, oh my gosh, I love the mandala. So if I want to use the mandala as an art experience, I really need more training in that. And so I would take a program or a workshop, a certificate thing on just that topic.

And then I would add that to my toolbox. So as a music therapist, we gather a lot of stuff on music, listening experiences and music, relaxation, and different kinds of mindfulness meditations that we lead people in and we do guided imagery with them. So all of that was already in my training and my bachelor's degree, but yeah, I have tried to cherry-pick the things that I thought were going to be really beneficial to the retreat experience. And I wanted to know more. 

And then some of it was just like, I took a course on art-making from Kelly Rae Roberts who's this really cool artist that used to be a social worker and now who makes really great art. And I did a little home study, like an art course on that, just for my own joy. And then I thought, oh my gosh, like I'm loving this. I could twist it into something else that I could use to create and teach them. So there's a lot of ways to do that. 

Marissa: Yeah. This is where one of the biggest parts of my...I'm trying to think of the right word, I was gonna say like dogma... one of the biggest parts of like my belief about why I've started this business is therapists have all they need, right? 

Megan: Oh my gosh. Yes. 

Marissa: Like just being a trained clinician, you have all you need to be able to facilitate something like this. And what I love about what you just mentioned is things that are just hobbies and passions of yours, and you've figured out how to use them in a retreat space. So if somebody listening is a gardener, bring a bag of soil and get your hands dirty. 

You don't have to have any special type of training. And again, what I love that you said is as you facilitated more and more retreats, and as you got into oh, this would be fun, then you pursued maybe more training or more education in something. But it wasn't something that you've had to have to run your first one. 

Megan: Exactly. And I just used what I had, and I was splitting the week with my colleague, and so she was teaching different things and I was teaching different things and we would go in and sit in on each other's workshops so that we could hear what the other person was sharing and we'd dovetail into the next thing we were offering. And then we would do some things together. And it was a really great blend.

So if anybody's listening and they're like, oh my gosh, I have a friend that's a therapist. Maybe I should try to build something like, definitely think about doing it, but start small. I mean when I did one-day programming, I did it quarterly. And so I would do it seasonally.

I'd be like, here's a spring offering a summer offering, fall, and winter. And it was just like from nine in the morning to three in the afternoon, I started with some sort of yoga or movement. And then I did a little... I would do some themed-based teaching. So if it's self-care mindfulness or whatever the workshop was, and then we'd have a nice lunch, a catered lunch, some sort of healthy meal, and then we'd have an afternoon of creativity.

So we would either make masks or do a drum circle or do mandalas, or something cool. Sometimes I had a guest speaker come in and they'd talk about a really fun topic. So it was a really great day, and it was just a one-day event for my busy working moms who really can't take a week off and go to Costa Rica at that time in their lives.

So sometimes you have to also meet your audience where they are when you're building something for them. That's super important that you're really listening to what they're asking for, but also knowing is this really a sellable offer to this particular audience at this time in their lives. 

Marissa: Yeah. Would you recommend hosting something internationally from the beginning? Or is that something you felt like you worked up to? 

Megan: I've definitely worked up to it. I definitely worked up to it. I really think if you start with a one-day workshop or retreat or then you move to, like, I did a bunch of in Northern Michigan. So then I would do like a weekend in Northern Michigan. And sometimes I rented my own Airbnb and handled all the details myself, which is complicated because you have to bring your own chef if you're not married to one like I am. 

There's a lot of... you know, I brought my husband for cooking for some of those.  But sometimes you're trying to facilitate different people coming in. I don't teach yoga, but I always want to have some body element, so you have to think of all the logistics when you're picking your venue, which is a huge section of retreat building that really matters. Because if you don't pick the right venue, it's really problematic.

But yeah, you could definitely do it in an Airbnb. You can, if they allow groups. You do have to make sure with the owner that's okay. And then you can also select retreat houses or there's sometimes like different cool venues in your own home state or wherever you live that they rent to people who do groups and events like this.

So you can check that out and see. And then from there, I built actually one out west at Red Mountain Resort, which we're going to again in May for the Thrive Summit that's designed for therapists. But the Red Mountain Resort was great because then that way you could just charge your portion for whatever you're teaching as a trainer.

And then the people will book their room, and anything extra they want they get to add on themselves. So you're not trying to coordinate the payment for a massage therapist and the yoga lady. And like all the things like you're just saying you come and do a-la-cart, you pick the room you want, you pick the package you want.

And then here's the pricing for my offering. And this is the schedule we're running it on. There's two different camps there on renting an exclusive property just for you versus renting a venue that is some type of resort or a retreat center. So there's different kinds of ways of going about it.

But definitely to answer your question, it took me many years and many retreats to feel confident enough to build something small to something maybe a weekend to a four-day to a different state, to something national, to something international. And then I felt ready to do. 

Marissa: Yeah. And I think if you live somewhere that... like Asheville or there's places that are like destinations that people want to travel to anywhere anyway. So you could probably make the most out of doing something that's local to you, but that doesn't mean people won't travel to where you live. 

Megan: It's true. 

Marissa: And I don't think it has to be like these destination places too because like my mastermind for 2023, we have an in-person event and it's in Rochester, New York, right? I would never, like, point to a map and be like, that's where I want to go. But it's still going to be a gathering of people coming together. So it doesn't always have to be some fancy destination, I don't think. 

Megan: You're right. Look at the success of omega. It's like that's in upstate New York and it's a beautiful property, but it's not, like, a vacation tropical destination.

They do have their Costa Rica location for their winter programming down there, but it's you're right. People will go anywhere for community connection and something transformative. So you could host something and Detroit, Michigan, or Toledo. It doesn't matter. If it's a really great program and an amazing offer, people will follow you for it.

Marissa: Yeah. And I think there's the idea of keeping this under your practice or building this as a separate income stream. And so I'd love to hear some feedback on that because it sounds like at the first… or I don't know if it's still this way. No, I don't. I doubt it's still this way, but in the beginning, it seems like it was people from your caseload that were coming.

Megan: Yeah. So for sure when I first started out, I just got the domain name, megangunnel.com, so that still lives out there. It's a dinosaur WordPress website, which served me well for building my solo practice. And it was my basic PLLC. And so I structured it under everything I offered, whether it was like a group therapy group or a mini-workshop or whatever I was doing in addition to my solo practice fell under that PLLC. 

And then as I grew and I did a lot more speaking engagements and I was invited to conferences and all these other things, people kept coming up to me and they were like, what's your company? What's your brand? What's your thing? And I was like, Megan Gunnel, Megan Gunnel PLLC.

It was ridiculous. I had no branding. I had no identity. And it was like pre... I just didn't even know that existed. It was like not a thing. Branding exploded, I don't know, a few years after that, but at the time I just built all of my retreats and offerings that I had for my client population.

And then I nested it right under that PLLC. And then as my company grew and I expanded into the Thriving Well Institute, I had two separate entities, and so I formed another LLC as my coaching practice and business. And then with that, I have the courses, the coaching, the membership, and the retreats, and all of those other wonderful offerings, the summit.

Marissa: Yeah. So are there things to consider when filling this with existing clients? Part of me is thinking like confidentiality, but then, when we run therapy groups where we have a way to do that. So if you're using people who are on your caseload and you're hosting a retreat for current clients, are there any ethical things that we have to think about or anything? Can you tell us more about that? 

Megan: For sure. You have to think of two things. You must have a disclaimer and you must have a liability waiver. So when you're running this, and I spoke to an attorney when I first started building these cause I was really scared about jeopardizing my clinical license.

Because things can happen and you're also on a weekend retreat. And if people are traveling to this or, and mine are all like strict no-alcohol policy. It's just, I'm really super careful about that and substances, those kinds of things. Many people run them very differently, but I'm, like, really cautious about that.

And I know it's hard to be a beautiful place, like Costa Rica for a week, and never have a cocktail, but like we do it. And it's amazing because you just feel so cleaned out and I'm awake by the time you leave. It's really great. But when people come, they're like, oh, really? They're not, they're like missing the fine print. 

But I do make sure that there's no alcohol. But I think on your website, for sure, you must have some sort of language around, this is not a psychotherapeutic offering. It is just a wellness offering. It's not meant to be therapy, or like you have to have some disclaimer language, and then you must have a really hardy liability waiver that you know, really removes you from all risks that could occur. 

If somebody is upset with something that happened, or if they try to sue you for that experience, or if they get injured or sick while they're traveling, you really do want to make sure you're fully protected.

So that's very important. And then in addition to that, I will add that the first year I went to Costa Rica, we brought a photographer, a professional photographer with us. We hired her to come with us. We saved a room just for her. So we lost some income on her room, but what we got in return was amazing gorgeous magazine-quality images of this retreat. And that was worth its weight in gold because we were able to then quickly sell out our next offering because those pictures told a beautiful story of what you would get by attending. 

But you do have to get a photography waiver from everyone too. And there are sometimes are people who say, no, I don't want to be in any of the pictures. And so you have to respect that and make sure that you're following whatever they're asking for. And then I imagine just if you're renting an Airbnb and there's lots of liability to think about property in terms of injury, in terms of yeah a pool, if there's a pool there, you might have your own policies around never swimming alone. 

In Costa Rica will say every single time we've gone, we have had a riptide incident. There's been one person who goes out a little too far. And I mean, don't forget... I didn't know this, but when I first started hosting in Costa Rica, the Pacific coastline. Where we are on the peninsula, the Nosara region is really well known across the globe for surfing. And so you get these amazing waves and everyone's searched there and they learn to surf there and it's beautiful, but the riptides are deadly.

And so we have had a couple of people who were like, oh my goodness. They didn't need to be rescued by anybody, but they had a little struggle. And they were swimming parallel to the shoreline. Like we were all telling everybody how to do it. And then you got to come in a little further down, but it is really scary.

And so personally I never go further than my knees. I'm like always, really sure I can just touch wherever I am because it's beautiful, but it's really powerful. And you do have to think of those risks. 

Marissa: Yeah. But would you say that the rewards of running the retreat and that transformation that you're facilitating and witnessing, does that outweigh some of the risk or some of the logistical planning? 

Megan: One hundred thousand percent. I think I'll do this until I'm not able to physically do it anymore. I think I'll forever do this because, for me, it gives me the goosebumps just thinking about it taking someone, inviting them really into an experience that can return them to their soul, and then have them go through this really large awakening of transformation.

It's so moving and powerful, and I feel honored that I get to hold space for this. And I'm always amazed that whenever I feel compelled or moved to offer it, that it fills. Like, it kind of always blows my mind. I'm like, will it fill? And then it fills, and every time it's sold out, but it's because I feel really in tune with the purpose and the timing and what I'm trying to convey to the people who are coming.

And what the mission and the goal is, and the vision of this experience, but yes. Does it outweigh the risk? For sure. And you just have to make sure you're protected and covered. People travel and there's... I had tours that I had to tear down in 2020 that I wasn't able to do. And that was really tricky and confusing and hard and painful and upsetting for all of us.

But you just do it and you roll with those punches and you provide those refunds and those things happen. But yeah, there are some risks that you do have to consider, and sometimes there's also other challenges. Like sometimes you have interpersonal dynamics with group members that can be a little sticky, and sometimes there's things that need to be discussed and worked through.

So that's why I'm so grateful that I have this background and training as a therapist because you're right, if you didn't... I mean if it was anybody else leading this, it could be very challenging for them to be able to have a mini session with somebody, or like work through something if something comes up.

Marissa: Then it's just not happening. That's not good for the experience either. 

Megan: Not at all. So I think that I love what you're doing because you're in alignment with the same messaging that a lot of these therapists who run these larger Facebook groups and communities are doing, and that is that we're all trying to echo the same thing.

You as a therapist have the capacity to do so much more than just one-on-one care. There's a lot out there that we can be doing with our training. 

Marissa: Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned two things that I want to follow up on. So with COVID obviously I had this, like... I had announced that I was going to run one and then I never had to, but it sounds like you had things that were planned and booked. And so did you take things to be virtual retreats or it sounds like you just refunded people... 

Megan: We took it down. So those two that I mentioned for 2020 were actually connected to my husband. And I also run food and wine tours in Tuscany and over in Provence. And so we do those annually and we rent a big Villa and we have 22 guests and we bring chefs with us.

And so the three chefs, my husband, and two other guests, chefs, will cook meals every night and we take them to wineries. So that tour is all about drinking and eating. It's a very different experience and I'm helping him plan it, host it, put the landing page together, be the front of the house person to make sure that all the guests are checked in.

It's almost like running an Airbnb or a BNB for the week that we're there. We had one plan for Tuscany and one plan for Provence. And so those could not be translated to virtual, of course. But if you did, you know what I've seen people attempt to create like virtual summits and virtual retreats.

I don't know how successful they are other than just teaching things. I don't think you're going to get community the same way that you would if it was an in-person experience. I wouldn't rule it out. I just don't know that it's going to be the same benefit. 

Marissa: Having done both, I think you can certainly have a sense of community online. It's not the same as that space clearing. Like you're talking about like you're in a completely different like that vacation element or like you're out of your home element and in a new place where you open up, you certainly don't get that. 

But I have, I can say I felt community and I think it's possible to build programs with community online too, but it's not going to be the same as that in person. I think you have to, if you do a virtual retreat, I think the promise has to be a little bit different. 

Megan: That's true. 

Marissa: It's just a different offer. And if you're delivering on that in an online capacity, then I think you're still going to have satisfied customers and satisfied retreat members. I'm sure you just have to explain it differently. 

So the other piece that I wanted to follow up with, and this can help us transition into the business side of things is you were like, will it fill, but it always fills, which I love. It's just that abundant mindset. But what does it look like from the business standpoint?

We've talked a little bit about experience and logistics, but can you say maybe not necessarily your numbers per se, but just what's a retreat budget? What are things that we need to be thinking about in terms of spending and costs? 

Megan: Yes. 

Marissa: And what can we charge for retreats, and those types of things?

Megan: So I do have a little formula that I teach when I talk about doing retreat building and I think it works pretty well. So first you want to look at your venue and your venue's really important because I will say that venues in the United States are quite costly, whether it's a resort or an Airbnb. 

For example, most like luxury Airbnb is that you would rent in the US are like over a couple thousand a night for a sizeable group, but the Villa that we rent in Tuscany, for example, is literally a movie set. It has a pool outside, has a Roman bath in the basement, like, it has another indoor pool. 20 to 22 guests can stay there.

There's 11 bedrooms. Each bedroom has a bathroom. I'm just giving you an idea of the scale. It is a true castle. It is beautiful. It's on the Hills overlooking Luca and it's less than a thousand a night. And so when you're thinking about your venue, you want to really do a deep search because if you're finding something that's really beautiful, but really costly, then you're not going to make any profit.

And so you definitely want to be able to do the math, all the things that you think you have to pay for when it comes to budgeting for this retreat. So in Costa Rica, for example, I'm renting the retreat house, exclusive property rental. I'm covering my own flight and the time that I'm gone, I'm covering whatever person I have to hire, whether it's a photographer or a yoga person. 

I have to have two van drivers because we have two shuttles for guests. There's a lot of logistics that go into this. They have a chef on staff, so I don't have to worry about the food and that's included. And then if there's any outings or if there's a dinner out, for example. Or like an excursion, am I covering that? Are my guests covering that?

So you do have to add that up. Then there's sometimes tax, like there's different kinds of small print charges that really add up at the end. So be sure to review your contracts very carefully because you can be charged for heat and air conditioning or whatever usage, especially in Europe, when you're renting properties.

There were some whoops surprises when we got to the Villa in Tuscany. Like we had to, add on a few charges at the end, but it still weighs out to be profitable for you as a business owner. So you add all that up and then you divide by the number of guests if you sell out.

And that should be your breakeven. And then what I recommend is doubling that and then really sitting with it. So this is my exercise. I literally close my eyes. I tune in, I have my own little meditation practice around this, and I feel whether or not that price point feels legitimately like a yes or it's too high or too low.

And so there's a true little like mental mindset, money mindset, a meditation exercise that I teach people to go through when they're pricing programming because it's so important to sit with that, to say, am I in alignment with this price play? Does it feel true to me? And will it be okay if I charge this for this offering?

And if it's too high, keep searching for venues, because you really do want to be sure that you're not leaving the retreat feeling resentful that you just basically paid to get there. You want to make a sizable profit, and it's not only... I'll say this too. It's not only the time that you're there, obviously that you're working.

I worked for about a year when I build a one-week experience. And so it's not all the time, but there's lots of thought and planning that goes into it. And so you have to cover that too. 

Marissa: And I think retreats out of any other offer, especially like an online business offer, which my side hustle students take offers to market for free, right? So there's no overhead. I think retreats out of any offer are the ones that are the most potential to not only not profit, but to potentially even lose money if you plan it poorly. 

Megan: And once you're locked into your contract, you're on the hook. So the very first year that we ever rented an exclusive property in Costa Rica, my friend and I were like, this is either going to be an amazing start to a new business idea or a that's a family vacation. 

And so it worked out great and we sold out and we did ever since, and I have done them myself and sold out. But yes, it's scary because you're like, okay, are we going to be inviting all of our friends to split this place with us? What if I don't fill it? 

Marissa: But I think there's two ways from an online business standpoint. So this is something that separates from your therapy practice, but I think there's two ways to hedge that bet, and the first is to build your retreat into a bigger program. So like a year-long mastermind with an in-person event or something like that. And so it's built into a program. And then another thing goes back to that very first point that you brought up is selling an after program, right?

So you have the retreat everybody's on that high and it's okay, how do we integrate this into our life. When we get home, here's the aftercare program of six months or a year or whatever. And then, if the retreat in-person event isn't as profitable as you want it to be, then you're recouping some of that cost either through the surrounding program or the program that you sell after.

So I think there are ways to make a retreat more profitable or even if when you run it and you're like, oh, we had some extra costs. Then throw a sales page together at the retreat and say, wow, now that we're leaving what's next? And being adaptable to that. 

Megan: Very true. You can definitely do that. I love the idea of, and this would really apply to probably the people that you do a lot of coaching with, of building some sort of an online offer and then having an in-person event at the end, that is such a great idea. 

And also the post-retreat offer, that is super important, and people want that because they don't want that good feeling to end. And they're also really scared about returning home and never implementing any of this dreamy amazing stuff. 

Marissa: Yeah. I think post-conference, or post-retreat events, or post-retreat offers are amazing. Like I know for a fact I would have purchased an offer off the retreat that I intended. And now that I'm thinking about this house one I'm like does she have an offer already planned? Probably, and I'll probably buy it.

Awesome. So we've talked about the experience. We've talked about some of the logistics, some of the business side, but is there anything else that you want our listeners to hear? Because these are probably people who are planning or envisioning dreaming about their first event. So do you have any kind of words of wisdom for people who are getting started for the very first time?

Megan: I would say stay connected to the why. You have to have a great vision, right? So you have to really understand your own intention and hold on. Because as soon as you launch it, you're going to be like, refreshing like crazy. I'm sure you talk about this too, where people are just like, it's out there now.

I feel super vulnerable. And you're looking for those people in the register. Just hold your anchor. Because if you get destabilized in it, it's gonna impact whether or not people register. I don't know how exactly that translates into energy language, like for people who know energy work, but I really believe that.

And when you feel excited about it and you're excited to share it and you can't wait to host it and you can't wait to be there and you're like leaning into the joy of that and your intention is clear, it will sell and it will fill and you'll be so glad you took the chance. 

Marissa: Yeah, 100%. That's exciting. Well, Megan, where can everybody follow up with you? Because it sounds like reviewing those contracts and running these numbers and all of that stuff. That's the stuff that I would want help with, and that's some of the stuff that you offer. So if anybody's interest is peaked, where can they find you? 

Megan: You can find me at thethrivingwellinstitute.com and also on the Thriving Well Therapist Facebook community.

Marissa: Awesome. And do you have any freebies or any offers for our audience to take advantage of? 

Megan: So I do have a 33-page free guide on the Thriving Institute page under the resources tab. And that is a free guide that helps people who want to build a thriving practice or scale beyond that. And then the other offer that I'd love to invite people to think about either this year or next year would be the Thrive Summit.

And that is going to be a four-day offering out at Red Mountain Resort and it's part retreat, part a learning summit. So I have eight keynote speakers plus myself, and we're going to be teaching therapists how to really elevate and scale their income and their impact. 

Marissa: Well if you need a ninth speaker, I would love to, 

Megan: Oh my God. That'd be so great for sure. 

Marissa: Thank you so much for your time, Megan. And super helpful for everybody post super helpful for me. So I know if there's any listeners who are interested in retreats like I am that they've taken a lot away from this. So thank you so much. 

Megan: That you Marissa. It's been my pleasure. 

Marissa: Alright. That was a super fun one for me. As I am shifting some of the core values in my business, community is certainly one that is coming up for me. With the isolation and just distance of 2020 and 2021, coming together with... I was going to say like-minded but it's even more like-energied. That's not a word, but same-vibe women is something that I am yearning for. 

I mentioned the retreat in Taos in July that I will be going to, and is still is on my heart to host some sort of retreat in this business. I won't put it out as when and where, because when I did that, we all know what happened. I won't claim that this is going to be the year of the retreat like I have in the past, but it still is something that really speaks to me.

I hope this episode has been valuable for you and this idea of communal space, coming together, ritual, or communication, or sharing, or whatever comes up for you when you think about coming together with people in a place, with a destination, like leaving your home, leaving your everyday life, being vulnerable enough to show up in a place where you don't know anybody, and putting yourself out there and really seeking that profound transformation. 

Perhaps it's something that you'll pursue this year if travel feels safe for you or something that you feel called to facilitate as part of your business as well. All the links that Megan shared with us will be in the show notes. And you can certainly seek her out for planning your own retreat. We also have several episodes in the archives here of Empathy Rising that talk about retreats.

So that's certainly something that you can peruse as well until next week. We will be back next week with an episode all about how to set and pursue big-money goals. So I hope you'll tune in for that one. And until then, keep on rising.

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