Side Hustle Spotlights with Abby Chow & Grace Wolk
Bursting with side hustle ideas?
As nice as that can be, it can also be difficult to nail down the one you want to focus on and build.
I know as avid multi-taskers and multi-passionate people side hustle students Abby and Grace both struggled with this.
Discover how they went from a constant stream of creative ideas to finding their way to the perfect side hustle to start on in the latest podcast episode
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Show Notes:
Hey Risers, welcome to episode 180 of Empathy Rising. This week we have another student's spotlight, and actually it's students spotlight Because I am bringing on two students, Abby and Grace. I thought it'd be really fun to talk to them together because their personalities are really complementary.
They've become friends outside the program, which is something that's so fun for me to watch is not only connections happening on a professional level, but connections happening on a personal level as well. It's no surprise that their offers are complimentary.
Abby and Grace are both serving the people who are BIPOC or women of color, and they're doing it in different ways. Grace's program directly serves these customers and these clients that are Asian American and identify as people of color and women of color, and Abby is taking social justice and advocacy out of the University and out of academia and into the streets.
I don't know if she would say it that way, but bringing some of these subjects that have really been taught behind closed doors and bringing them to therapists and bringing them to people directly. I am really excited about this conversation and can't wait to see what unfolds.
Marissa (M): Hey, Risers. Welcome to episode 180 of Empathy Rising. We are getting up there and I'm so excited today because we are having another student spotlight where you get to hear from current students inside of Side Hustle Support Group right here at the end.
They've been through almost the whole program and they get to share experiences with you as well as you get to hear all of the really cool stuff that they have been creating, and go check it out for yourself.
Today we're talking with Abby and Grace and I wanted to have them together because both of them have a really strong advocacy component to their programs, working with women of color and people of color in general, from two angles. One from serving BIPOC clients and one from helping therapists serve BIPOC clients.
I thought it would be really cool to have a well-rounded conversation today. Welcome to this show ladies, and if you guys could do more of a formal introduction, that would be great. Grace, if you wanna go first and then we can have Abby jump in, and then we will just chit-chat.
Grace (G): Awesome. Thank you. Thank you again for having me Marissa. My name is Maria Grace Wolk. I am a Filipino American entrepreneur. I am a mom of two young boys. I'm a wife. I'm a licensed psychotherapist here in California.
I'm from Livermore, California, that's in the Bay Area, and in my private practice I specialize in trauma and anxiety using EMDR, brain spotting, IFS, working with quartz, and I guide the healing process based on mindfulness, trauma-informed, culturally responsive and social justice oriented environment that addresses the effect of systemic inequities and trauma on people's mental health.
Outside my therapy practice, I'm a courage builder empowering women of color, healers, and entrepreneurs to reclaim their identities to create the life they want. I also host the Grace Matrix podcast, which was originally called Own Your Journey, where my mission is to amplify diverse perspectives and normalize mental health.
M: I love that is something that has been present in your work inside Hustle through the whole year, is really how can we serve these populations that maybe might be immigrant populations or even just second generation populations and taking that cultural competency in all of the work that you do, not only in your practice but in this program that you're building also.
It's been really cool to watch you spearhead that value and carry that value forward in your work. That's really neat. Abby, do you want to introduce yourself?
Abby (A): Yeah, I don't know if I can go after that. That was so eloquently spoken. I'm like, "Whoa. Grace, you've been on some podcasts". Hi everyone. I'm Abby. It's so nice to be here. I am a settler on Colonial Lands on Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh territory, in so-called Vancouver, BC.
I am a clinical therapist. I don't even know what to call myself anymore. I do a lot of stuff. I specialize in trauma and addictions. I also run a group practice in so-called Vancouver, BC and teach systemic oppression at some of the local universities there. Yeah, that's about it. I don't have a really well-thought-out introduction as Grace does.
M: Great. Great. Again, I wanted to bring you guys on together because I thought we could have a really rich conversation about this because this is in your value set as well.
I remember when we had our sales call in the very beginning process, and I saw in the signature of your emails that on unceded land and these things, that is something that really spoke to me because I've started beginning process of this whole decolonization journey and just coming face to face with a lot of this stuff and I saw you as somebody was a few steps ahead of me on that.
Not only was I excited to guide you in Side Hustle, I really felt like you were somebody who I could learn from as well. It's been really cool to spend this time with you and be exposed to things and be and learn from what you're building in the world too. Thank you for being part of that.
A: Oh, thank you. That's very nice of you. I really learned so much here and you helped me operationalize something that was in my head. That's what's really necessary to make that impact, right? Sometimes those two worlds don't meet, and so it was a great fit.
M: Something else that as an objective observer the two of you have in common is both of you are multi-passionate. Nailing down the ideas—Abby, at one point you were building two programs instead of inside of Side Hustle, and then decided to let one lead the way.
But what's cool is now you can always go back to that second one that you had been thinking of, and you know the process now. When you're ready to bring it to life, you can.
Same with Grace. You were like, "Ah, I wanna do this, but I also wanna do this and I wanna do this". Can you guys talk a little bit about your experiences of being multi-passionate and having multiple ideas? What that's been like in Side Hustle, the good and the bad.
Maybe it's been good for Side Hustle to systemize like Abby said, but also it makes you feel like maybe you're in a box a little bit. If both of you could just elaborate a little.
G: Yeah. Absolutely. Just to repeat what Abby said before, before joining Side Hustle, I'm sitting in front of my computer and my head is so full of ideas, like you said, multitaskers. My head's full of ideas, and I'm excited about it. My creative juice is flowing.
Then I start creating content and you know with creating content, you start to research, right? You do the research and then I can easily spiral into this endless place of so much information that I would become so overwhelmed and I would also find others doing the same thing. I'm thinking, "okay, then why am I doing this if somebody else is doing it?"
You know that imposter syndrome, and I think that's where I would get stuck. Okay, there's just so much out there. How will I find the time? How can I piece it together? In front of my computer, I would just get so overwhelmed and I would just not even move forward, or maybe I would start, and then it wouldn't really go anywhere.
But after your Side Hustle, now I'm sitting in front of my computer and I have this calendar in front of me. I have due dates, I have a list of things, trackers to complete certain things that I know I have to check off and I have a timeline, so I don't get lost in research of it all as I usually do.
There was that one incident, Marissa, that I'm just now recalling. When you texted me to step away from the creative marketplace. I think all day I was texting you, I'm like, "Oh, I think I like this" and I had fallen into that dark abyss of templates. Marissa Voxed me and she's like, "Grace, step away".
M: "Permission to leave your computer"
G: I truly appreciate that. That was the mentorship, guidance, and structure that I needed. As a person who has so many ideas and I wanna get stuff out into this world, I wanna make an impact, but how do I do that if I can't even create the program that I want to create?
The structure that you provide, the community that we have in Side Hustles, like Abby, we've met outside of Side Hustle just to share ideas. She's taught me so much, and I really think I've made some really great friends too. It's everything. It's just, it's been such a great experience, Marissa, and I don't wanna take too much time.
I'll save the rest for later, but there is just so much good stuff that I can talk about. But yes, my 'after' self is just so much more... I feel so much more grounded. I am organized with my thoughts instead of mumble-jumble.
M: Yeah, and Abby, I saw you nodding your head when Grace was talking. Did you feel similar to that?
A: Yeah, I really related to that, and Grace, I can listen to you talk all day, like the passion that you have when you talk and the genuineness. Please don't ever silence yourself. Just sitting there like with the vibes of it all.
Yeah, no, I totally related to that. I'm very flighty with the projects that I start, so I'll start projects and then just leave them. With Side Hustle, it was impossible to leave it because I literally have to show up every Friday and be like, "Hey, I'm here. I did something", and so that was super, super helpful.
As you mentioned, Marissa, I had two at the beginning and throughout phase one and I believe and phase two, maybe I was doing both of them. I remember distinctly at the beginning you're like "I don't know if it's a good idea for you to do both". I'm like, "I can do both". Yeah. Launch time came. I was like, "oh, I should have listened to her at the beginning, it was too much".
M: It's common every round. I have a couple of students who want to do two, and I never tell them, "No, you can't" or "you shouldn't" I just say, "here's what I've seen in the past. Students start with two, and by the end, they're usually doing one" and that is your experience.
A: Totally that's what I really appreciated about you too, that whenever I had something that was off script, you never told me, "No, you can't do that". It wasn't like, "you have to do it my way". It was like, "this is what I've seen. You make your own decision", which I really respected. That was helpful for me.
M: Yeah, I believe there are many roads to an end result and I'm teaching one system and one process, but even within my system there are options. Like, we're at launch time and some of you are doing challenges and some of you are doing webinars and you still get to choose based on your strengths, your personality, what fits the best for you.
I don't ever want it to be restrictive, and that's why I was curious, as people who are multi-passionate if you felt like it restricted you or if that was a benefit when you had multiple ideas.
A: I think it was needed.
M: Oh okay, cool.
A: It was needed, definitely.
G: I agree. I agree. I definitely needed it because if not for your advice of just writing everything down, all your ideas. Just write it down because you may not work on it now, but you could work on it later. That's what was happening with me. I think I struggled with: I wanna work, I wanna create content for therapists, but I also wanna create content for my ideal clients. That was a struggle for me.
I think just creating the program and working on the different parts, just managing different chunks of it, I'm able to use those. I'm able to interchangeably make them work.
If I wanted to branch out, which is what I'm doing now that I started creating the first one, what she said was "just create one first". Now I could branch out because I have all these pieces and they're movable, which is so great.
M: I feel like that is one of the barriers that I hear a lot of times is students either—when they're considering Side Hustle—they say, "I don't have an idea. I don't know what I would do" or "I have too many ideas. I don't know how to narrow them down", and I love what you just brought up, Grace, is the fact that sometimes we don't know until we see it, right?
Your curriculum has shifted and you've added things, and then you've moved things, and then you've taken things out. Until you write it all down, you don't even know what it is that's in your head. You have a concept of it, but you can't, like, tangibly see it.
That 'writing it down' process does a few things. It can help us flesh out the idea fully. It can help us put things on a timeline, and sometimes when you write a thing down, you might see ways that they combine and it might be, "oh, hey, I thought they were two separate ideas, but really they're one idea" or vice versa.
I think that's a crucial first step that was helpful for I think both of you really fleshing it out and seeing it, and then deciding on your next step.
If I make you guys or ask you guys to go back like a year, really a year from now, go back a year, what were you considering before joining Side Hustle? Did you know you were looking for a program? Did you just stumble on Side Hustle? I'd love to hear about your buyer journey.
G: Okay. You want me to go first, Abby? Okay before Side Hustle I would be in my office, right? I'm in my therapist's chair sitting across from my screen during the pandemic, and I have a client. I'm listening to my client tell her story and it's the same story that I hear all the time from every woman of color I see in my practice.
It just occurs to me that I need to help more people than one at a time. You know, that one person that I see in my private practice once a week, I mean I am thrilled to be helping her, but there are just so many more people all over the country, all over the world that just one-on-one work, while I love what I do, I can only see so much without burning myself out.
To protect my energy and so I can continue to do what I do—because I learned the hard way during the pandemic. All of a sudden there was a rush of clients and yeah, I thought I could do it, but I just burnt out.
One-to-many is just my, I just thought that was gonna be my next step to be able to chip away at the barriers. I've been using this because this is what I'm creating in my program: how do we chip away the barriers that are blocking you, but instead of using a chisel, I wanna use a jackhammer.
M: Yeah. So for you, it sounds like a real calling to serve, but knowing that you're at capacity in the current method of service that you have, which is one-on-one therapy, and so really reaching for: how can I do this on a larger scale? How can I help more people?
G: Yeah. Yes, and that was the reason why I started my podcast to begin with. So I'm able to reach more people to break the mental health stigma and for people who can't afford therapy. But then there was more to it. I wanna have one-on-ones with them. I wanna meet with them, I wanna work with them. I wanna tell them about my process that I created, that I use.
M: I think that's something that's really similar with you and me is; even though we want to work one-to-many and we're trying to have a business model that scales and that serves our lifestyle.
I don't see you or I ever taking touch completely out of our business. That contact and that service and that relationship with the people that we help is still really important to us.
G: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
M: Abby, can you tell us a little bit about your buyer's journey? Where were you at, what were you considering before joining? What made you decide to purchase? Those kinds of things.
A: How honest do you want me to be?
M: Very.
A: Okay. Okay. Where it started was I came across an ad of somebody else running a very similar program and they were talking about making eight figures and doing a whole other venture.
I'm gonna try not to get into too many details about that, but doing a whole other venture and then making a whole lot of money and really using that as a selling feature.
I thought to myself—and working like 20 hours a week or something like that—And I thought to myself, how many people out there are working three jobs and can't do that?
It just hit me like, if I can... I've always had a little bit more of a business mind than a therapy mind. I always say I wasn't built to be a counsellor. I was like, "I can probably do that and I can take that money and I can give it back to people who actually need it, and I can probably help somebody not get evicted".
That was really where the idea came from, that maybe I can leverage this business model to make a difference. My supervisor calls it 'infiltrating capitalism', so I tried to infiltrate a little bit.
M: I'm all about that.
A: I just got really bad vibes. I just didn't like it. It wasn't in alignment, it was too much focusing on "you're making so much money" and it just didn't feel right. This person is very knowledgeable and I can see that there are a lot of really great things that they were putting out.
I went and I tried to look for somebody else who maybe I vibe better with. Who maybe had better... not better values, but had values that were more aligned with mine. I stumbled across you. I listened to one of your podcasts and I signed up.
M: Oh my god, that's amazing.
A: That's it. I didn't know that much about you.
M: Okay, so here's an example of somebody who is solution aware. We talk about the awareness scale early on in phase one. You were very solution aware. You knew "I want to scale my business, I want to make more money. I wanna use that money for good", blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Then you started shopping programs or offers, you became offer-aware about other people and then you were able to make a decision based on offers, for you based on values. Other people are going to make purchasing decisions differently.
I'm not saying that yours is the right way or my program's the right program. That other program you're talking about probably helps a lot of people and there are a lot of great results.
A: It does, yeah.
M: But for you and your buying process, this is what you went through. I think that's really valuable for listeners to hear because they might hear your story and be like, "oh, I don't purchase that way" and that's great. Or there might be people who hear your story and say, "that's how I like to make purchases too", so it's great to share that.
A: Yeah, it was really when I got to, I didn't even really need the sales call. I think when we got on there I was like, "Oh crap. I'm sorry". I forgot about it because I was already down to buy. And I remember you were like, "Do you have any questions?" I'm like, "No, not really. I'm already in."
M: You're just like, "send me the bill" and I was like, "Okay. . ."
A: I already decided. I think that the most important thing for me was the vibe and the values of it all.
M: You guys are both on the west coast. Let's quickly talk just about the experience in Side Hustle, the three phases, and some of the features of the program.
What you liked, what you found helpful, if there's anything that you struggled with or was a challenge for you, I think that's valuable for listeners to hear as well. Then we can start talking about these amazing programs that both of you are building.
G: Okay. I think in the beginning… because I'm more of a visual person, and how we started, we were just working through parts of it. Seeing the big picture. Or, how are we gonna put this together? I think that's where I struggled a little bit because I just wanna see the big picture first and then work on it.
But you were really helpful in guiding me through that process where I was struggling. I really like that the copy person is able to review our stuff and look over it without needing to create it for us, we are doing it ourselves.
We're creating our program ourselves, and they're there to just make sure we're staying within the boundaries of, "okay, this doesn't sound right, but you should edit it in certain ways".
M: Yeah. I like to say that our support staff works with you. It's not done for you, and that's on purpose. Because I could pay them a lot more and have them do it all for each one of you. But we've consciously made that choice not to do that because then we feel like, you'd be dependent on a graphic designer, you'd be dependent on a copywriter when you graduate.
That's not what we're trying to do. That's not a result that we want. We want you guys to be able to do it yourself, and then if you do hire somebody, you can more accurately and effectively communicate what it is you want.
I feel like you only get that experience when you're doing it, but when they provide you the templates and they provide you the reviews and stuff, that's the kind of collaborative nature.
You're not ever starting from scratch. They're helping you and then they're reviewing along the way, making sure that you're honing that skill. I'm glad that part was helpful for you and that you enjoyed doing it yourself.
G: I really appreciate that, with Shayna helping us with the website and teaching us how to use Squarespace, now I'm able to recreate my, even my clinical website and move it over to Squarespace because now I know how to do it. I know the basics and I've been changing colors because I'm picky and I like to change things around.
Being able to do it myself and not having to wait on someone to do it for me, submit a request and then they'll take, what? A whole week to get back to me and say, "What is your request?" or questions, the back and forth.
There's a big delay in getting what I want done when now I can just log into Squarespace and change my colors because it's bugging me. Or change my logo because I change it for like the 10th time.
M: What I'm getting is like this entrepreneurial empowerment because you're not the only student of mine who said, "oh, I went back and redid my therapy website this weekend because I learned so much from the copy part", or "I learned so much about the design that I wanted to make things better".
Yes, we're building out your Side Hustle, but these are skills that are transferable across businesses, and across any entrepreneurial endeavour that you choose going forward.
You understand what it means to acquire leads, build an audience, and nurture those leads, to sell to those leads. These are business principles that don't change regardless of what entrepreneurial venture you're going into. I think that's really cool that the skills for you have been transferrable.
G: Yeah. I do wanna admit that I am one of those people that thought we are gonna come out with a 'done-for-you' website. I really thought that. At first, I was like, "oh, okay, we have to do it, make it ourselves". But now I'm thinking it's even more, it's way better because it's something that I can continually use and it's an investment.
Learning is always an investment and it reminds me of the proverb: when you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, and then when you teach him how to fish, he won't be hungry for the rest of his life, that's what I was thinking about.
M: Yeah. That's really cool. Abby, what about you? Were there certain phases or features or anything that stood out for you? On the good side or on the challenging side.
A: Yeah, I echo a lot of what Grace is saying. I really appreciated having the ping-back, whether that's with you, Shayna, or Kristen. I think I had the most contact with Kristin. Probably. There was a lot of...
M: But your designs are fabulous. I doubt Shayna had any feedback for you. She's probably, "looks good!"
A: I appreciate that. No, she was still very helpful. The little details that I missed, I think when you stare at the same thing for the 60th hour, you start to blur out a little bit. It's just so helpful to have that ping back.
I think that's what stopped me from putting things out there before as well. Just not knowing, not having that feedback that reassurance of, "hey, no, this looks good. Go forward. Go forward".
That's I think one of the biggest things about the program. Yeah, the touch piece and the reassurance. The feedback was really good as well. I think what was challenging was, very much like Grace, I like to have a full picture of what's going on and what's next.
But you really address that with the book that you sent out because I would always just be flipping up front and be like, "Okay what's coming up next?" and filling in that space myself.
At first, the most challenging thing for me was to do the prompts in your book because they were so structured and so detailed. Which is why I should do it. Because that's not how my brain works.
It's the other part of developing that I'm not paying attention to. The beginning was actually really difficult for me, but when we got to creating things, that's when I hit my stride. But it was difficult in a good way.
M: You've expanded. Calling you to grow in certain areas and again, when you decide, "Oh, maybe I wanna bring on a VA", or "maybe I wanna bring on help or delegate" because I know you're also working with somebody else in the side hustle with people, knowing what is your strong suit and knowing what isn't can help you when you get to the point of wanting to delegate out because you know what you wanna offload.
But having that familiarity with at least having your hands in it in the beginning. When you do hire or when you delegate, you're able to do that much more easily and you're able to get the result that you want from that person because you know what it is that you're looking for.
A: That reminds me of another conversation we had in our one-on-ones that I thought was super helpful around delegation, and working with other people and what that was like. I think that's part of the program that you don't necessarily advertise a lot, but I found that helpful that we can bring in other things that are associated with it that aren't necessarily actually building the Side Hustle.
M: Yeah, on some of the other student spotlights, that's something that the students have talked about too is when we talked about energy management or resource management, and yeah I don't really advertise that part of it, it is like when you're building something new, and I can actually speak from experience this time because I'm building Rooted and this is the first time that I've been building a Side Hustle with you guys.
Literally sometimes week-for-week, we've been doing the same projects together, which has been cool for me for the accountability. It's also been cool for me to be back in that beginner stage of "okay, I have an established business, just like you guys have established practices and I'm doing something new". Yesterday I literally looked at both to-do lists and they were very clear in what I had to do for both businesses.
I didn't do anything because I couldn't decide which one to do. I was like, "Oh, this is what my students go through". It's been cool to be back there and to go through that with you guys.
G: Yeah. I love having access to you too through Voxer because I'm not always gonna be prepared during our Wednesday calls, but when it does come up, I can just, "let me just text her real quick. She'll get to me when she can". But yeah. You know, it was just nice and convenient.
M: That's life. Grace, you've travelled quite a bit. You've had fun things planned, but you've also had not emergencies but things pop up that you've had to take care of. Probably the same for you, Abby too. We're doing this in the middle of our lives. We didn't put our lives on hold to build these businesses.
We still have everyday obligations and everyday commitments. Fitting it in with that stuff and really holding onto the 'why' and the vision and the purpose behind why we chose to do this so that we can make sure that it comes to fruition.
G: It's just so much more fun when it's structured, it's really going somewhere, and we can see it happening. We're creating it, and that just makes it even better, and it's fun for me. It's so much fun.
M: What about marketing? Because I feel like both of you have had kind of a similar response to marketing this is the part that I haven't been looking forward to. Can you share a little bit about the phase two stuff and the building the audience stuff?
A: Marissa, I blocked that out. Why are you bringing it back up?
M: I didn't wanna talk about marketing.
A: Yeah, Phase two was interesting. I've structured it so that I've outsourced what I can outsource. My business partner Linda—hi Linda—she's wonderful. She's so great at creating graphics and doing Instagram and all that stuff.
The way that we have set it up is that I write emails and I just keep writing content and she goes in and she takes what she can and turns it into socials. Which has been a really great system. What was the hardest thing for me is visibility marketing and putting myself out there.
I did one and then I was like, "Okay, I'm done now. Maybe next time", but it was a really good push to go and do it and just be out there. I think there's a lot of... I don't wanna use the term 'imposter syndrome', but there's a lot of doubt around whether or not this is something that people want or whether or not I'm the right person to be out there.
When you're on these podcasts and you have to answer questions and be articulate, it brings up a lot of that stuff. Whereas, behind a commuter I can take forever to write and stuff. That was the scariest part for me.
It's also hard for me to come up with something that felt like a strategy again, that flightiness came back up and so what was helpful was getting it down.
I think in one of our coaching calls, we got it down to a calendar so it felt more like a strategy and everything felt like it had a purpose instead of: I'm just spewing content everywhere with it, not doing anything.
M: Yeah, we talk about the metaphor of breadcrumbs, right? Everything we're doing, from our free content to our opt-ins, to our hype events, to everything, should all be breadcrumbs leading to the same trail.
For people who are multi-passionate, like you guys, we still talk about how we can be creative in that and how we can leave room for spontaneity and new ideas to come up, but still making sure that is leading somewhere and ultimately leading to a sale of your program.
So Grace, what about you? What about your marketing experience?
G: I think I'm similar to Abby where, with social media, it's like a love and hate because I would be in the mood to create content, and then the next week I'm just like, "I'm over it". It's hard for me to also find the time because I tend to post when I can't sleep at night. Nothing else to do, I'm just gonna create and post stuff.
What I did...I was trying to experiment and see what is it that I'm usually posting because I do post on my personal and my business, but it's usually things that I'm really passionate about, like my running and to help me to be accountable to run every day.
Also, the things that I was talking about were more mindfulness and my kids like, what helped me today with my kids? How do I, when I'm struggling, how do I help myself? Or how can I help others see it from my perspective?
I still struggle with, "okay, I think I need to batch. When do I find the time to batch?" The time-wise, I think I need a person to help me. I could just create stuff like Abby, write the emails, write the content, and someone can just...
M: Pull the pieces out. You make the hero content and then they pull the pieces out. I think that would be a great investment for you. I'm encouraging you to do it. I'm like, "yeah, do that. Hire that person".
Now here we are at launch time, Abby, you're gonna be launching in real-time, and Grace, you've decided to launch...are you doing February? February, Yeah. If you guys could talk a little bit about just deciding your launch timeline and just what the launch process has been like?
A: Okay. Deciding the launch timeline, I think I screwed myself over a little bit because I wrote in one of the emails I was gonna launch in the fall, and so I was like, "Oh no, now it's out there. Now I have to do it in the fall". That's why I decided that I just need to do it by the fall.
M: If you hadn't put that out there, would you be on real-time right now, do you think?
A: I think I would still be creating things in real-time, but I might do it next year just because I'm scared and I wanna delay it. It's probably a good thing that I put it out there.
M: We definitely look at this and say, "okay, look at your program. If it's a six-month program, do you wanna launch in November and go over the holidays?"
There's some timing that we look at, and it does make sense to start after the new year or whatever, but in your case Abby, if you'd shared that on a call, I would've been like, "Alright, you're going in real-time" because it's fear.
It's not actually like, "Oh, I've thought about this in terms of my ideal customer's purchasing" or, there's not the acumen behind that choice, it's just fear. I love that you share that.
A: Yeah, and I think that's so great too that you brought that up because one of the really great things about the program is that you would call me on my bullshit. Sorry, can I swear?
M: Yeah.
A: Okay. I'm so good at coming up with reasons for things so that I don't have to do it, and you'd be like "I don't know..." and you do it really kindly. But also I'm like, "Oh, damn it, I can't get away with that". I can't not do it. That's really helpful.
M: Can you share a little bit—and if you don't have exact numbers, that's fine, but can you share a little bit about audience growth and waitlist and audience size and that kind of stuff?
A: Yeah, we didn't do much marketing at all. I've only been on one podcast and we've been doing socials since I think, August is when we started so it's been about two months. We have 70 people on our email list, 15 people on our hype event, and 22 on the waitlist.
M: That's amazing. Those 22, did they come through the funnel, or did they come to the wait list directly?
A: I don't know the exact of that. I think most of them came to the wait list directly.
M: We would wanna test that funnel a little bit more, and make sure if we need to do any tweaking, but for two months of promotion, like two solid months, those are great numbers.
That's more than one person a day joining the email list when you look at the averages, and that's one of the things that we focus on, is looking at averages instead of quantities.
Because when we look at quantities, we're looking at vanity metrics, but when we look at averages and rates of return or rates of performance, those are more constant numbers that we can use as benchmarks. Everything sounds great for two months of promotion. That's really exciting. Abby, thanks for sharing that.
A: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it slows down because now the fear is starting to come up. We're good.
M: We're good. Grace, tell us about your decision to do February. Yeah.
G: I knew from the very beginning that I was gonna launch a little later just because I know my schedule and I know with two kids after Halloween it's a write-off to next year. I just know that there's no way, I'm not gonna take myself away from all the activities that come up, all the vacations, all the holiday stuff that we go through every year.
I just decided I'm just gonna give myself grace and not give myself any more pressure than I already...I get to choose. I'm like, February is good because it's after January, I have that month to decompress from the holidays and get everything squared away
My ideal customers are like me. I know that they're probably busy during the holiday months and need that time in January to straighten everything out, organize their desk, and be ready to focus on themselves again and so February was a great time.
I did notice that in my practice February is the time that everyone falls off their New Year's resolution and then they feel bad about themselves and then they're just kicking themselves and feeling blah. Then that's when my program will come in and go, "Hey, you know what? Try this".
M: Yeah, I love that because you're practicing the Side Hustle philosophy of 'lifestyle first'. You have these skills, you have all these assets created. You can utilize those assets at any time and you've chosen based on your lifestyle, February.
I think that's cool and it's modelling for me and everybody listening like making this work for you. You're not becoming another employee or a slave to this side hustle. You're making this side hustle work for you. I think that's really cool.
G: Yeah, I think that's what's great about being an entrepreneur, right? We get to control our schedule.
M: Awesome. Okay, so you just led us to after New Year's resolution and all this stuff, and this is why then my program will come in. Tell us more about your program and then we'll hear about what Abby has created.
G: Sure. I created this program called Grounded Within, and it is a program that helps Asian American women cultivate the courage to take up space and make an impact. I built this because I recognized that this is exactly what I needed before this was something that was not available to me and I had to learn the hard way.
Now that I've taken all those lessons from being a therapist, from seeing clients, from facilitating dialogues that are difficult conversations within different companies from being in the corporate world for a decade.
I have had all these experiences. I have learned so many lessons that I've taken them all together and now I'm offering them to the people who are like me so they don't have to go through all the struggles that I went through.
M: Yeah, I think that's just so powerful. I remember us having this conversation, so I'd love to check back in with you on it: a difference in the sense that these are similar to the clients that you see and you can serve them a certain way in therapy, and are you looking forward to having a similar customer, but being able to serve them differently through a program that is not therapy?
G: Oh, absolutely because in therapy, they don't want you to share. They don't want you to share so much about yourself, but in coaching the differences you can, and it's helpful to share. I do, in my clinical practice, I do tend to share a little bit more about myself, but I wanna do that freely. In my clinical settings, they don't want you to.
Where we're under this umbrella and all these ethical rules. With coaching, you're free to share your experiences, join the client and let them know that you've struggled with the same thing, and this is how I've dealt with it. This is what worked for me and maybe it won't work for you, but let's try different things.
M: Yeah, I love that bringing in this playfulness, this experimentation, this willingness to not have to have it all figured out all the time. It's cool that you're guiding the women who are like you and have similar shared experiences. Not only your education and your expertise but your experience and being able to bring that experience into the program.
If there are Asian American women or women of Asian descent who are listening, where should they go to find out more about this program and to work with you on this kind of shared journey?
G: My website is mariagracewolk.com and I am on Instagram as @mariagracewolk. And what else? And that's it. I have TikTok, but I'm still learning.
M: Yeah, that's ok. We're all still learning,
G: I also have, I'm sorry. Sorry. I also have that quiz that they can take on my website that they can find.
M: That's self-sabotage behaviors?
G: Yes, finding out what your barriers are.
M: Yes. Okay, love that. Also just go check out Grace's website, mariagracewolk.com because it's pretty. I know she talked about how she keeps tweaking it, but it's like one of my favorite websites that's come out of this program. It's really pretty.
Even if you just want to go see what the potential is that comes out of this program, go check out her work because she's really put a lot of love into it. I love it.
G: I love it, and your program really helped me come to this offering. Can I just share one more thing?
M: Yeah.
G: I was running with my husband, as I do. I feel like every time I tell a story it's about running...as I was running.
M: You're on day 30 or something of running!
G: That's when my mind is blowing and so I'm running with my husband and it's usually after one of our calls because I'm running and I'm just processing what the meeting we had and talking about, the pain points of what I'm trying to help to come up with the solution for.
It occurred to me that it was just so clear you helped me come to clarity with my offer. I just love that. I just love how I was able to tell him (because he doesn't know much about it) these are the pain points, this is why they struggle and default to self-blame but they don't know that there are other things that are causing them to have this barrier.
It's not just a black-and-white answer. It's never a direct answer. My husband, he's never thought about it. The fact that I'm able to explain it to someone else and have that be clear to them. That, "oh, okay. That is a problem, right?"
M: Yeah because it's one thing to talk to the cohort about it, and they're all going through the same thing and they're like, "yeah, okay. I get what your promise statement is".
They're on this shared journey with you to be able to explain it to somebody who's not going through the program, who doesn't know what online income is, and for them to get it, it's "Wow, okay. I explained it and they got it".
It's a cool experience that somebody can grasp what your project is and what you're bringing to the world. Even if they're not exactly familiar with it and it makes sense to them. So Abby, tell us about the program that you are building all the way to completion and then where we can find you and all that stuff.
A: Yeah, thank you for asking that because as much as I'm terrified to be the face of it, I'm actually really proud of what we've built. The program that we're launching is a membership site for therapists to unlearn systemic oppression in community with other therapists.
It's called Reflecting on Justice. The reason why I structured it as community-based learning is because this isn't work that you can do in academia. It's not something that you can learn through institutions.
The way that we're approaching it is coming to an embodiment of justice and an embodiment of what anti-oppression and abolition, transformative justice, what does that actually feel like as a person? Not necessarily as a therapist, but also leveraging the fact that therapists have access to so many people and can be the catalyst for so much change.
In my opinion—folks can disagree with me if they want to and have a conversation about that—I think therapists have a duty to be part of this change because we're seen in society as knowing mental health and knowing and understanding the human condition.
This is a big piece of it that can't be disentangled from that. Yeah. And so the way that it's run is every week we have a different thing coming out. Week one is a liberation digest where I take some of the stuff that I'm learning and I put it together as an easy-to-read kind of thing to spark some new perspectives and start the reflection process.
Then week two, we have the unpacking complicity prompts where it's like you just what you've learned and start integrating that into your life and practice and what that actually looked like. So translating that theory into practice, which I think is one of the really hard parts of learning.
You can read all the books, but if it doesn't actually turn into something, it's useless. That's what the purpose of that part is. Then week three is when we actually all get together and do a fireside chat.
I'm so excited about that, to just facilitate those conversations and there's so much that you can't learn on your own. You just have to be with other people and get those perspectives in order to degenerate that knowingness.
I think so much of it is in relationship and the focus of our program is really to resist cancel culture in learning and build on a loving accountability in relationships. It's not about letting you slide with things, but also we're not gonna like shame you and abandon you and be like "you are now ousted from community". I think that's outside of what justice looks like and the vision that we're trying to create.
I'm very excited for it. Terrified but very excited for it. What was the second question?
M: Where can we find out more about it?
A: Oh yes. Our website is www.reflectingonjustice.com. If you go to reflectingonjustice.com/checklist, you can download our free checklist where you get some reflection questions of just different areas to bring more justice in your life.
There's also an overview of all the different systems of oppression that we'll be addressing. It's just a check-in around where you might be at in your justice journey and where you might be able to, not necessarily level it up a bit, but maybe attend to, that you maybe haven't thought of yet.
I think I forgot to mention this before, but my favorite part about the program is that it is based around contribution. We're unlearning, but our unlearning gives back immediately.
50% of anything that we make goes back into the community, and we're hoping that as our community continues to grow, I don't need more money. I just need to be sustainable, and as our community grows, then more of that money, more of that proceeds can go back into the community.
M: I can't even articulate the way you make me feel when you speak, in that little monologue, I got goosebumps, my heart was activated. Just so much of what you do, the purpose of what you do is so clear and this is just a personal experience.
You use the word abolition and that to me is almost, in my mind frame, a historical word. But when you said it and you said it in like present tense and this is what we can and should be doing in our present tense, that is what gave me goosebumps.
It was like this awakening, this call to action. Just in your word choice. I feel so humbled and so honored to even be a little piece of what you're bringing because I just see it as so powerful.
Thank you for letting me be part of your journey. You too, Grace. I just really, I feel so honored each one of you that goes through this program just to be a little sliver, a piece of your journey because like you guys are gonna be 10 years down the road and I'll be like, "I know that girl ".
Just to think about how I can be just a little piece of what you're bringing forward is so cool. Either of you had any words of wisdom or any advice for anybody who's considering Side Hustle? What would you say?
A: Do it, I dunno, worth it.
G: Totally worth it. If you're thinking about it and you want to make an impact, this is a great place to start to organize your thoughts and to have that community, that support, that we all need, the group setting, the feedback, the "let's test this out together".
All of that is just so valuable and it's such an investment in yourself that you could continue to use throughout your journey as an entrepreneur.
M: That's so cool. Thank you. So mariagracewolk.com and reflectionsonjustice.com and we'll have all of those links in the show notes for you as well as links to social profiles so you can follow along with Abby and with Grace and just see the beautiful and impactful work that they're bringing to the world. Thank you ladies for being here.
G: Oh, can I share the liberation five-day video challenge thing?
M: Yeah, please share it.
G: Okay, so over five days we will learn how you can go from self-blame to self-liberation, and on the last day we will meet virtually to discuss what we've learned and that's it. You can visit my website, mariagracewolk.com/liberation.
M: Perfect. Then that's where we'll send everybody to sign up. We'll have all of those links in the show notes for you. You can check out Abby's stuff and you can check out Grace's stuff and just see the impact that these ladies are gonna make on the world.
It's just gonna be incredible. Thanks for being here and sharing your journeys, and I appreciate how you guys were open and honest about what worked for you, and what was a challenge for you. I think that's really helpful for listeners to hear. Thank you for being candid and for sharing.
G: Thank you, Marissa.
A: Thank you so much for having me.
M: Bye guys.
Alright. That was super fun to talk with both of them. I love to do these try-out episodes once in a while because they're a little bit more dynamic than just me talking by myself and even more dynamic than just me talking with one other person. I hope Abby and Grace's sharing has really inspired you.
Especially if you are somebody who may, might be a little more on the shy side. Both Abby and Grace shared how sometimes they like to be behind the screen or behind the computer and stepping into visibility and stepping out from behind the computer screen has been a challenge for them.
If you resonate with what they shared today, Side Hustle can still be for you. In terms of marketing, we go through multiple marketing approaches, some that lean highly into visibility and some that lean really far away from visibility.
We also really emphasize a strengths-based approach inside the program. Whatever your strengths are, we are going to be able to design an offer, design a marketing plan, and design a launch plan that is going to meet that for you.
All of my introverts who are listening, this program is for you for sure. If you are somebody who has been interested in Side Hustle, don't forget to head on over because applications are open. You can apply over at marissalawton.com/side-hustle, and that kicks the whole process off.
We'll then have a conversation about the program to see if it feels like the right fit for you, and hopefully, if you're listening to this, you'll be joining us for round number seven.
Lucky number seven, that starts January 2023. Alright guys, I will talk to you next week, and until then, keep on rising.
