Side Hustle Spotlights with Jen Hershey
A little support goes a looooong way.
In fact, it could be the missing piece of your journey to starting your own side hustle.
In a recent podcast episode we were joined by alumni Jen Hershey, and during the episode she opened up about how she…
Built a bond with her peers inside the group
Found guidance and encouragement through one-on-one time with me
…as well as the other places she found support in launching her online business.
If you think a little support could help you push through your own barriers, listen to Jen’s story here.
CLICK BELOW TO LISTEN!
Show Notes:
Hey, Risers. Welcome to episode 179 of Empathy Rising. Today I'm chatting with another Side Hustle student doing a spotlight on her experience inside of Side Hustle Support Group.
This week we're talking with Jen Hershey. I just adore Jen. You will hear how hilarious she is in this episode. She has me busting up laughing multiple times in this conversation.
I had to pause myself so you didn't hear me chuckling and laughing. She is so fun and her personality really comes across in the episode. What I think is really cool about Jen's story is that she's doing something different than all of the other Side Hustle students. Different than anybody that I've helped guide in the six rounds of Side Hustle.
It was sometimes challenging for me to help facilitate her and guide her, and I ask her to share about that. What was it like going through a program that wasn't exactly designed for what you wanted to do? She shares that. I think it's a really cool idea.
It goes to show that even though we have ideas for a workshop, or group program, sometimes you can be out of the box and it can work out amazingly. I think that's one of the biggest takeaways that we can listen to or that we can take away as we listen to Jen talk.
Let's dive into Jen spotlighting her experience inside of Side Hustle Support. If you are somebody who wants to join Side Hustle for 2023, applications are officially open, and you can find them on my website at marissalawton.com/side-hustle.com. All right, now let's get to Jen.
Marissa (M): Hey Risers. Welcome back to the Empathy Rising Podcast. We are here with episode two of our Side Hustle Student Spotlight series. That was a lot of s's. I'm chatting with Jen Hershey, who has been working in Side Hustle for the last nine months. She's just going to talk to us candidly.
I invite open and honest conversations here. Sharing the good, the bad, the hard, the fun, the challenging, all of that stuff, so you can get a feel of what it's like to participate in Side Hustle if you are someone who is considering joining us for January.
Jen, if you could do more of a formal introduction, share a little bit about where you are, and what you do clinically, and then we'll dive into what brought you to Side Hustle.
Jen (J): Awesome. Thank you so much. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in California, and I went virtual in 2019 before my second child was born. There was a smooth transition in the pandemic but it also burned me out. I was looking for a way to diversify my income.
I knew there was something more, but I didn't know what it was. I heard you on Joe's podcast and started following you on your podcast. I just felt like you were very relatable to the experience around all of it.
I dived in and I was like, "okay, what is this? How do I do this?" and you're like, "here it is" and I said, "a hundred per cent". She's, "okay, we'll slow down. Are you sure?" and I'm like "yeah". I just felt like the timing of everything felt so right and I was ready to put something else out into the world, but I needed structure around that.
M: When you were having some of these ideas—because we talked through a couple of different versions of this and you ended up with an app, which I think is so cool—we're going to explore that in a little bit, but what ideas did you have coming in or before applying for Side Hustle?
Obviously, there was something kind of brewing, you knew there was something more. Can you share a little bit more about that part of it?
J: Yeah, it's so interesting because I'm trying to think back because I don't do a lot of reflection. I'm like, okay, what's the next thing? And I'm like, "how did I get here?" I wanted to do two courses and one was something with the enneagram, the enneagram coach I know.
One was for therapists, it was just scattered. I was like, "okay, but I need one umbrella brand. I need one thing to launch both of those things". I wanted the flexibility of it.
That's how I landed on creating a platform for therapists to plug and play their courses and creating this one-stop-shop marketing platform where people can access all of these resources in one place.
That's how it felt, there were so many things that I wanted to do and even just starting the program, "oh my gosh, this is so much", there's just so much information that I wanted to take away a lot of heartache around that for therapists that maybe weren't necessarily wanting to do a huge side hustle but wanted to start launching a course or getting their feet wet into a course of what it would entail.
That's kinda how it came about. I wanted the umbrella brand. I wanted to build an umbrella brand, but not just for me, for everyone.
M: Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that I remember from our very first conversation was it was never just about what you wanted. I'd even be like "what are your income goals?" and you were like, "this, but, and..." you always had this, and it became really clear that you weren't building a program that you were going to run.
You were building a platform and a movement and a message and it was bigger than what I do, I'm not saying bigger than what other Side Hustle students do. It's bigger than what I do.
You have a very, how do I want to say this, all-encompassing, you want to reach and help and spread this message beyond just yourself, and I think that's really cool.
J: Yeah, think I'm like smiling as you're talking about it because it's, I mean it's just, again, that reflection, that's slowing down of, I feel like I was always like this, I'm a nine on the Enneagram, a peacemaker, so I'm like, "how's everybody doing?" I'm a hostess with the mostess: "Hi, do you need to drink? Do you need this?"
Always wanting to build something for other people around that and gosh, even like in college, I was the vice president of the Senate and I'm like, "We need one central place for advertising for events".
We got this kiosk on campus and I just, these things are popping up in my head and that's what also just feels crazy right now. This feels really soul-aligned. Everything has fallen into place for this thing to happen and it's a lot of work. It's a big thing that I'm undertaking, but it won't be the last thing that I do, but it just feels really great. It feels really cool right now. I'm just so thankful for that.
M: Yeah, and I feel honored to be just a small part of that. You're going to be on Good Morning America, you're going to be on whatever, and I'll be like, "I know her", it reminds me of another alum, Ashley, she's in the Mastermind right now.
She's been on the podcast before, but she shared something similar to you where, looking back, she can recognize how all these pieces were part of the path that we're getting her where she's going.
Again, that forward-thinking, where she never really realized how everything fits together. It seems disjointed, but when you look back, there's this connecting thread through it all. Yes. It feels really cool. I feel honored to be even just a small part of that
J: Girl, you played a big part.
M: Oh, thank you. I'll take it. Okay, so Jen, again I'm making you go backward, but heard. What's cool about this is it's meta, because one of the things that I love about teaching you guys in Side Hustle is, I'm also doing these things.
You heard me on a podcast, which you learn in Phase Two, it's called Visibility Marketing. Essentially it was a podcast you already trusted, you already believed in that host, and then that host essentially vouches for me by having me as a guest.
That trust is transferred, and then you started following me, and then you ended up in my programs. What's cool is you get to then say, "How did I find Marissa? Oh, it's through these exact same things that she's teaching me".
J: Totally.
M: If we could go back to that a little bit, you knew you had something more. You knew you had these ideas popping up, and then Side Hustle presents itself to you.
You found me through a trusted source. What was your decision-making process? How did you end up officially coming into the program and making the decision to join?
J: Marissa, I won't have a great answer for you. I am an Aries rising. If you're in astrology, I'm like three outta the fire signs. I just…I'll just go. I just go. This is what I'm working on, as I'm later in life: finishing things, and when it's hard, staying in it. I was primed and ready and that's why even the discovery call was like the same thing.
It was just like… I think I was unconsciously, not really knowing what I wanted, but it was just such a driving force to "I cannot do this on my own. I need structure. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how I'm going to get there". I always like to bring people alongside me that know more because I only know what I know.
It just felt like the perfect program that I was hoping for because I didn't know yet. I was like, I don't know. I'm going to sign up for this thing and see what happens. It's a long commitment. It's nine months and then you're in the program, you're like, this should be two years. This is so much information.
I know you used to have it for six months. I can't even imagine that. I think it was just the avenue that I needed. Again, I like that you were female, to be honest. I thought that was really important to me. I didn't want to hear from another male about how they built their business.
And your copy was great. Everything, your podcast is really what sold me. Your podcast when you dive into stories of how you started having kids, your own businesses, and being a therapist yourself.
I think that combo, I was like, "Okay, shoot. She gets it". Yeah, you get it, you know it and you've done it and I want that. I think that was like that culmination around how I found you from Joe is these domino effects of really knowing you.
M: Yeah, and I think it's really neat because when we go through our buying experience, a lot of times, not every time and not necessarily in your case because you have such a big platform that you're building, but when you're selling just an individual program.
A lot of times your niche is a version of you, and so when you dissect your own buying experience, you can say, "Okay, how can I bring some of these things? Maybe I need a sales call, or maybe I need a more personal touch, or I need the copy to be great", or whatever.
Then you can bring that into your own selling process and have that translate. I think it's really cool to be able to say, "What is it?" Or, "What were these factors that contributed to me purchasing?"
J: Yeah, and story is huge. A story is how you sell anything. I'm finding that now. Again, with the app, I'm the main character right now, which I don't love because I'm wanting to showcase everyone else.
But people need to hear the story and be brought into the story. And again, that's what connected me to you in regards to saying yes. I want to do this.
M: Yeah. Let's talk about, alright, now you've bought into Side Hustle and we're going back and forth and we're like, "is this a course?" We looked at different platforms like Masterclass, which was kind of similar, not of what you were thinking and you ended up on this app.
What I think is cool is you have this, you almost have two ideal customers, two audiences that are benefiting from this because How We Get Through, (and I won't say this as elegantly as you) but it's bringing resilience, mental health, mental toughness.
These aren't exactly the right words, but it's bringing that to the masses and making that accessible. It's doing it in a couple of ways. You're having other clinicians contribute to the app, and you're paying them for that.
It becomes a side hustle for these clinicians who don't necessarily want to go out and build their own businesses, and who aren't called to build bigger platforms like you but want some extra revenue.
Also, it's this mainstream customer who wants to understand mental health and wellness and wellbeing better, and they're getting that information directly from trained professionals. I remember that being really important to you is, there's a lot of bullshit out there on the internet.
J: Yes, there is.
M: You wanted to legitimize them and give people not only a one-stop shop, so to speak, that kind of sounds crass for what you're doing, but to legitimize that as well. I think that's so commendable. Can you talk a little bit more about kind of the two sides of things?
J: Yeah. Being a therapist myself, I was like, how can this...I'm wanting to solve my own problem for other people because I'm in my therapist-friend community. I'm like, "How you doing? How you doing? How you doing? You're full?"
Everyone is tapped out and so I wanted it to be easier for them to diversify their income without having to do a lot of the work. Now we know, with passive income, you have to spend time ahead. You have to put in the work for it to then actually be passive.
Money was a huge part. Time was a huge part. Taking away all tech was a huge part. Taking away all the marketing wasn't a big part, but also the sweetest piece of this: as we're filming and I'm reading like therapist scripts, I can get teary right now thinking about it.
We're so good. We're so good, we're so knowledgeable. Oh, here I go. We have such healing power and experience and that is the main goal here. Here's a therapist that has sat across from people that lost their identity in motherhood. Years and hours of experience.
That's the other piece about this. I'm talking to therapists and they're having imposter syndrome. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm like, "Yes, you do. Yes you do". There's a little bit of a coach in me in that way, but it's mind-blowing the stuff that's coming out and I'm just like...sorry, I got so emotional.
I think it's just "Oh, this is why" I'm on the right track because this is why. I am not the one... I'm a good therapist in my own lane" But I've always believed in, "Go see this therapist. They are trained in this, go see this person", blah, blah, blah, because we all have this rich, deep experience.
There's the actual money marketing part of it, and then there's the realness around the gifts that we have as therapists that we need to share and it doesn't have to be hard, it doesn't have to be hard, and it doesn't have to be hard for the user to find it.
M: Yes. I think we're going to flip things. I think we're going to dive into the app first and then we'll circle back to how Side Hustle has helped because we're right in this and, I just think this is so fascinating. Now we need to reveal your secret weapon a little bit, which is your husband because he's your developer.
J: Power Couple, here we go.
M: Yes. On the tech side of things, the app itself is still being built, but what you're doing right now is curating the content for it. Talk us through that a little bit, because you send out these kits to the therapist to record, and like you were saying, you bring down the barriers.
"Oh, don't have the tech, don't worry. We've got that covered for you. Don't know what to say? Don't worry. We'll work on that with you". You're bringing down every barrier for these contributors to be able to create quality content.
To get compensated for that content and to make sure that what's going out on the app when the app is live is this gift that you're talking about. Walk us through this content-building side first.
J: Yeah. Yeah. Great. So my husband is a jack-of-all-trades. He is also a freelancer, and we have two young kids under four and we're just juggling life.
M: He's helped other students in the program, with the program; he's our secret weapon right now.
A: Exactly. He's just amazing and there would be no app if it weren’t for him. That also just feels great and aligned. He's just…he's amazing. He's a great guy.
What we do is, if you're interested in contributing, we have a call together and just get to know you because part of the app also gives you marketing back to your practice or back to a product that you want to sell more of or a group, or whatever it is, group coaching program, anything.
I want to have people be able to funnel back to you. We jump on a call, we narrow down a topic, and then we pick a recording date and so it works out like four weeks before that recording date, we work on script, all of that. I just look over the script; does it feel like user language?
I'm not here to be like, "that's not right" or whatever, because you guys know what you're doing. You know what you're doing and you're experts in this. Then he created a whole kit, a whole entire kit with a ring light, a GoPro a teleprompter and so he mails that out a week ahead of time.
He has a whole list of instructions and then he logs in with me on Zoom and helps you record the day of, so we make sure the audio's okay, make sure video's okay. Then he does the teleprompter if he needs to go faster or slower. Then we upload it or edit, upload it, add graphics, and all that stuff into the app.
Literally, yes. It's just like that plug-and-play. You just have to create the content and then we do the rest for you. That was an important piece for me because I don't have time for that. I'm like, "just tell me where to be and I will do it".
M: Do you want to talk about the compensation piece a little bit? Because it's this reciprocal relationship: the more the therapists share the app, with their clients or with their friends or with whatever, the more exposure they get. The more traffic they get back to their stuff, but also their therapists get compensated for their contribution as well.
J: Yes. Which has been like this on-going thing of how do I make this the best? I think it still has room to grow. We do pay for filming. We pay $200 for filming, and then after the app launches in March 2023. Each contributor gets an affiliate link, which they get 35% off the monthly subscription, which is 9.99, or the annual subscription, which is $99.
If their core sells a la carte, so on its own, that's for $59 and they get 50% of that's an actual more passive way. Again, I'm not sure what the user is going to be more of a subscription or a la carte when we launch.
It'll all be data collecting at that point. They needed to get paid. I want an actual passive way for them to get income and then on top of it, it is that marketing back to your practice. Then we also have a podcast.
Everyone that's a contributor will be on the podcast. They'll be on our YouTube channel and Apple Podcast. There's Pinterest, there's social media. We've got like a whole...
M: So this is—and I told you from the beginning this was going to be so fun for me to participate in—and that's how I see it. I'm coming along on these journeys with you guys. I don't see myself as your guru by any means because I told you right up front, this is different than anything that's been done in Side Hustle before.
I'm so excited to be a part of it, but for some of this, we're going to have to adjust for what you're looking for and stuff like that. I really want to hear about that when we get to talking about your experience in the program.
It's just - you're like launching with this company, you're not launching this a side hustle. You are building a company that has a media department and a marketing department. It blows my mind what you're bringing to life here. It's just so cool. It's so cool.
J: Yeah. When you put it that way, it sounds scary, but it's true, but it's true. I think part of my work is stepping into that and owning that because there is no way backward for me. I am just full-force steam ahead, so I appreciate you putting that in perspective. We're going big, baby.
M: Yeah. It's so cool. It's like I said, we're going to see you on national media in two years and I'm going to be like, "I know that girl".
Talk a little bit about the app site. I know it's still in development, but how do you envision... how have you outlined so far how the consumer will use the app, and how the user will use the app?
J: Yeah, great question. In Side Hustle, we do a lot of interviewing. What's the word? There's another word with that.
M: Validation.
J: Validation interview. Yes. I did a lot of that in the beginning and now we're on social, so I'm using that to shape what courses people actually need and also just my friends in my daily life.
I was at the hair stylist and she was like, my son asked me what 69 was, and I was like, "Oh my gosh. Wow. I got a course for you for that".
M: "How to talk to our kids about sex". I remember you putting that in our Voxer, "Does anybody, is anybody an expert on this?"
J: Yes. Yes, exactly. And then in the same brush, my son broke his arm again in the same place. I was like, maybe he's sensory seeking I don't know. I'm not an expert in that, but I know a little bit of everything.
That's what I'm wanting again, is I don't want to search Google. I don't want to Google everything. I want one place to "here's a resource for you that can be really helpful". Sorry, what was your question?
M: What's the user experience? What do you envision it to be? Because like you said, it's still in development, but how do you envision the user experience right now?
J: Yeah, so I think in that similar vein of being able to subscribe, and when a user subscribes they create a profile that has certain tags around grief, relationships, and parenting. The app curates the courses around that, they can change at any time.
Then they'll get notified notifications for new courses that they might be interested in, and then also in our newsletter, the other piece of this that I want to offer to other therapists is if they have a group program or coaching program that's launching and they want to advertise it in the newsletter, "Hey, you'd be really interested in that" and really getting good in our email marketing.
We talked about this a little bit but having certain groups, like moms, entrepreneurs, another group, and so the email marketing is really tailored to them just as much as the courses are tailored to them.
Yeah, because part of the other problem is that there's so much shit out there. There's so much shit out there. Again, having them here, "this is what you need" is a really big problem that I'm wanting to solve with the app.
Social media can be, so our apps can be so like, "ahhh", there's so much information, wanted to cut through the noise and be like, "here's something that actually might make you feel better", or feel supported, or feel validated, that you can add to your program or you can add to your, I forgot what that's called. I'm blanking a lot right now.
M: You're fine. I think one of the things that you mentioned that I thought was cool was there's going to be not only on the email side but on the app side, suggestions based on "you watched this one, that means you might enjoy this one", which we see online all the time.
Sometimes when I'm shopping, because I do a lot of online shopping and I'll be like...
J: Oh, get it, girl.
M: ...you put this shirt in your cart, that means you want this shirt. It's in that kind of way. But from the app, what's very clear about your intentions is it's always to help. It's always to serve.
You watch this course, here's another course that might be interesting for you. Then they can buy that a la carte, or if they're in the subscription, they just have access to it. Is that right?
J: Yes. Unlimited. Yeah. Each course comes with a curated workbook that they can print, or it's a pdf or they can have it within the app. That just gives them a little bit more reflection questions of what does this actually look like for your life? Or if you were to apply it to your life, what does that look like?
I think the best secret weapon is that it is a directory on the back end. If somebody takes the course and they're like, "This is great, but I need to sit with someone in process", they can contact that therapist through the app and say, "Hey, I bought your course on, blah, blah, blah blah, death of a parent and I'm like, stuck in my grief. I would love to continue sessions or start sessions with you".
It's leading them back to therapy because I'm not here to replace therapy. I'm not here to take it away. This is like an added resource that is either leading people into the rooms of therapists or they are just getting this peripheral self-help meet. Trying to encompass all of that was a huge deal for the app.
M: Yeah, and legitimate self-help. That was our big thing around the branding is self-help that comes from qualified people.
J: Huge. That's the only... It's like the major part of it was, this isn't an influencer that's been to therapy, then writes a book about their experience and here, go do what I did, because we're all so unique.
We all have our own unique experiences and that needs to be honored through therapy and through courses like this. Here's what I think is happening for you, but what do you think it is for you?
M: Yeah and another benefit to this too is—I'm just forecasting forward—let's say somebody buys one of the therapist courses, you said "death of a parent", we'll run with that.
Then that therapist lives in California like you, but the person who bought the courses in New York, they reach out to that therapist, and say, "Hey, I would like to have sessions with you". The therapist says, "Where do you live?" They say, "New York".
They say, "I can't offer you therapy, but I'm launching a course", "I'm launching a group program", or "I'm doing coaching". It's not only that the therapist gets compensated by participating in your app and contributing to your app there, you could launch complete other income streams and complete other businesses for these therapists.
It's so totally cool the way that this is going to ripple out. It's gonna ripple out into the therapeutic community. It's going to ripple out into these users' daily lives, and it's just incredible.
J: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If they wrote a book or they wrote a workbook or something, another product, we put that on the app, whatever they want to draw people to, if it isn't more clients, because sometimes we're a little burnt out. We're a little crispy.
We don't need another client, but we're launching something bigger and something that, like a coaching program, which a lot of Side Hustle students are doing. They are taking away that one-on-one time. Expanding their income and their reach, which is great.
M: Yeah. And it's so cool just to see this ripple the way that this one app that you download on the phone is going to just continue to shape people's lives. That's the part that I'm excited about.
J: Thank you. We're so we're excited.
M: The other piece that I think is so admirable of you guys and the way that you have structured this is, you could be...the word that comes to mind is nickel and diming, but you could be like, "Oh, we don't send traffic back to you", or "you have another product? We're not going to list that for you".
You're so open and giving through the platform. "Yes, we'll link back to your site". Sometimes it's really hard when you're a contributor to then drive traffic to your own stuff, the apps or the bigger websites or whatever, they make that hard for you and you're saying, "No, we're making this easy for you. Let us give you this".
Instead of putting up walls around and you have to try and go around it and sneak links into bios and things like that, you're taking all that away and saying, "we want you to share".
J: Yeah. That's an interesting point. I was talking to my brother, he's a musician and he's built like a really, he's diversified his income very well. I was talking to him and he said, "You're giving too much away" and I was, "Oh shoot. Am I?" Then I come back and I'm like: I am not giving too much away. It's not who I am. It's not what I want to build, and it's not what this is for.
That was huge. I'm always trying to be transparent about that, and I wanted to be fair. I wanted to feel good, and if I think if I could give you more money, I would, but I'm also giving the marketing in to kind of balance that.
It's not going to be for everyone, you know what I mean? Which I totally understand, but it's just this weird "I want to give back and I want to promote you like, because I believe in you and I believe that you have something really special to share with the world that doesn't include me".
I'm in the background. I'm just building this place for you to set up shop wherever you want to set up shop, and yeah, again, I think Melissa, you're really helpful of "Oh, but this is what you built" and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I built that" and this is why this is again, integrity, soul aligned, this is so important to me and that's why it feels like I have to keep going with this. That's what kind of makes it easy in some way of "we're doing this, we are doing this". Yeah.
M: What's really cool too is your app is called 'How We Get Through', about this resilience and this continuing to rise and this perseverance. I have seen that in you because you're like, "I'm just going to figure this out", "this came up, Oh I'm going to work through it, I'm going to figure it out".
It's just really cool to see you when you mention integrity, you're somebody who is living exactly what you're talking about, you are completely in integrity with what you're building and it's really neat.
J: Thank you. I appreciate that.
M: Let's circle back to Side Hustle because like we both talked about, this was different. Building this app and this platform is different than somebody who is building a course or a group program.
Some of the approaches we had to tweak or we had to talk about, "Okay, how does this work for me?" Has side hustle been helpful even though it wasn't exactly designed for what you ended up doing?
J: Yes, absolutely. I think and I'm sure there's like a cadence that you see on your side, in the beginning, I'm Voxering you. I'm like, "Okay, what about this? What about that?"
I think you do a really good job of "yes", you answer the question, but then you slow down, it's "we'll cover that in month four", or "we're going to cover that in blah, blah, blah", because it's just so much and you're risking a lot in the beginning it feels like of "okay, I need this brand, I need this voice, I need this identity".
If that's different or if that changes which - spoil alert - it does, because you refine it. But there's just so much pressure I think, in the beginning, of wanting to do it and do it right, and that with the students you feel that, I'm sure.
Then you see it some people drop off too, "this is too much" because it is so much, but it also feels like I had accountability. I was learning something I didn't know. It felt tailored enough to where, if I had a question, I could ask that in the group, the group sessions, or I can Voxer you.
I didn't feel so out of it. I think for the hype event of what we're doing now, that feels not really tailored to me, but it's still gold. It's still valuable marketing information in what you've been doing for years. I'm sure just repeating it, you're like, "Okay, this is the steps".
To really grasp it, I think it takes hearing you over and over again and talking to other students, so the group Voxer Chat has been really helpful too, someone else has a question and so I'm listening to responses.
I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting. I don't have that exact problem, but I understand what she's saying and I might run into in the future". It just felt so overwhelming, so exciting, so much information. I wanted it to be slower, but at the same time, I don't know how beneficial that would have been.
M: I feel like nine months is the thing that everybody, it's the one objection is like, "holy crap. That's almost a whole year. It's going to take me that long?"
Then what you said when we very first started talking, but when they finished they're like, either "wow, that went so fast" or "how do I keep going? How do we keep the team together?" It's this weird amount of time that you, at first feels like a long time, but actually goes really quick.
J: Yeah, but I think that information is... it's just so good. It's just so much and it's so good again, in this MBA that I don't have, and so I think you just hold a lot of value, and I can vouch for your value because there's a lot of programs out there.
I was talking to another therapist and she's "Oh, I'm so glad you're getting so much out of it because I took this other one", I was like, "Oh yeah?" which is always nerve-wracking, right?
When you start, when you make a big investment. For anyone listening, I just feel so grateful that I was in this program because I'm launching a freaking app because of it. I have learned so much because of it, and I'm continuing to learn.
There's still so much that I need to fully grasp, but it was such a beautiful and hard "this is due, this is due here", blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It just kept me so structured and on track that if I didn't have this, I would not be launching next year. I just wouldn't.
M: Do you feel, just personally, do you place more value in the curriculum and the learning, or do you place more value in the structure and the accountability?
J: That's a tough question, girl. I would say both. No, both needed to happen. I needed that information, but there's no way I would do that on my own. It's perfect for me, my personality. I loved both those structures to again, build that relationship with other people too.
I've met so many freaking kick-ass people. They're just amazing. They're so amazing and they're just such hard workers. They're such hustlers in the best way.
I feel really grateful for that, it's expanded my own network in a really great way but for sure that power combo is the accountability and the information that I couldn't get anywhere else.
M: Yeah. 2022, round six will go down as the collaboration round. You guys have come together more than any other round. There's another summit that people are putting together right now, the one that Fran is spearheading. You guys have collaborated and done more stuff together, which just makes me so proud. I love that.
"Look at all these cool things they're doing!" and it just makes me really proud. It makes me proud. I'm wanting to censor myself, but I don't want to censor myself. It makes me proud of you guys, but also makes me proud of what I've been able to curate and put together for you guys.
It's cool just to watch what happens. I'm very actively in it teaching you, but also sometimes I just step back and I look at what happened in this round and we always have a graduation. We'll have our graduation on the 9th of November, so it'll be right after this goes live.
But that's one of the things we do is everybody shares their accomplishments and some of those accomplishments are money and some aren't.
Not every student makes money in the program, but audience growth or just personal growth? Personal growth is a huge accomplishment that comes from this program, too. It'll be really fun when we have our graduation just to share and celebrate all that you guys have done.
J: Yeah, and there's a lot there is a lot of really talented therapists that are launching amazing programs. It's surreal. It's surreal to be a part of that, and you're like, "Oh, but I am a part of that? I don't know, am I? They're killing it".
I think that's part of the motivation of being in a group: Oh, you're seeing someone else do this already or do a lot of visibility marketing, and so you're like, "Hey, how's it going? How did you pitch that podcast? What worked, what didn't? Which again, I think is so invaluable of having that experience because they know what it feels like.
It's scary. Everything is scary, and you're like, "How did that go for you?" or "how's your email going? How's your email list?" So everything you teach us, we now get to say okay, this worked for us, this didn't.
I'm building something different. I want to know everything. I want to know what worked for you, and what didn't because I'm having to be all things at once while narrowing down at the same time.
M: Yeah. Let's talk about, let's go through chronologically your experience, and then maybe we'll just share some big takeaways. Phase One really focuses on figuring out: what is this thing? Which, you arrived at this app then we're working on branding, and then we're working on funnelling.
All of those are different for you. Your funnel is even different than the traditional course or group program, or membership funnel. How is Phase One for you, looking back? I'm going to make you look back again.
J: Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's "slow down girl". That's what I'm doing. Branding I feel like was overwhelming, also, really important. I almost found myself like, "Oh, I know how to answer that question", but I never did. I never got back into the detail until like I really said, "Girl, you gotta answer this question".
M: "What do you stand for?" and you're like, "Oh, I know what I stand for", but when you actually have to put it on paper or type it out, it's totally different.
J: Exactly. Again, in my personality, I needed that force. I needed to be a mirror to myself, "No, you need to sit down and you need to write this out and flush it out. Or if you don't know, you need to go sit with your friend and tell her everything" and have her help.
"Oh, I'm hearing you say this, that". Branding. Good. I think that was the interviewing, and motivational validation, interviewing? Yeah, or not motivational interviewing…
M: Validation interviews are at the end of month one, and then sales pages and branding are in month two. Then month three is that funnel.
You used an external designer because you have a good friend who's a designer. Did you use Shayna at all for any of the design critique or feedback or did you just use somebody that you found on your own?
J: Yeah, I didn't use her personally, but I did use the templates on a couple of pages that she set. I still think it was really helpful. Those videos that she's done and group calls that I can look back on, it feels good to have more information on that.
But again, I just felt like I was building something bigger and I love the logo, it's really magical. It could be a cute little sticker. But yeah, that was really important to me. Copy felt more of like "what am I saying? How am I saying it?" So with Kristen, I use that definitely more than Shayna.
M: And so by phase or by the end of Phase One, you've written out your sales page, designed it on the website, and then written out your email funnel, but your email funnel is different as well.
J: Yes, and it keeps changing. I think that's the other part about this, and probably my broader experiences, this ability to be flexible and to change and to sometimes even grieve the work that I spent on something to then have it change and to just keep going. But again, it's just the process of refining the better product, the better thing.
M: I love that you said that because I think sometimes we're...I had this happen too, I sent one email and I didn't get a response from the one email that I sent, and I'm like, "Oh, my life is over. My business is over" and what you're saying here is it's an ever-evolving process, but you can also grieve what you worked on or what you expected to go one way and just how you get through it, this is you embodied.
Your outlook of “it keeps going”. I even got goosebumps earlier when you said, "this won't even be the last thing that I do" and just having that mindset of - I'm gonna get real woo, but it's like, it's all happening.
Life keeps going. Can we enjoy the process? Can we enjoy it? Can we like live in it? Can we feel all the things we need to feel? Not attached to just one outcome or to just one thing and expect it to be the end all, be all.
J: Yes, and that's not to say I didn't have weeks of crying or weeks of I don't know what I'm doing or the black hole of it. Again not to sound so 'woo', but when I connect to this higher self, this bigger perspective, it's like this holding around "It's gonna be okay. You're okay. You're learning something really important right now".
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I get teary again.
M: I get goosebumps. Whole-body goosebumps.
J: But you're learning something really important and so what is the lesson here? When you're ready and when you've cried and enough, how is this refining you?
M: Refining you. Not just refining your offer. Refining you.
J: Yeah, because we are our offers, right? Just as we are therapists, it's so personal. I'm selling me and how I talk and what I think and what I believe in for you. Obviously, we have blank late and all that stuff, but I am bringing a piece of me to every session.
Again, this process has been so much greater, and again, sorry to get 'woo', but Side Hustle was the avenue to keep on track and keep this mirror of "Okay girl, what are you gonna do next? Okay, that didn't work out. What are you gonna do? How are you gonna pivot? Who do you need to ask? How are you gonna get support?"
I'm not alone in this and I don't feel alone in it because we're all in this together, but it was this constant digging in and it still will be. But what are you doing? How do you want to get there? And who do you want alongside you in that process of it?
M: Yeah, I'm dumbfounded. It's magical. It's amazing. What a thought for us to listen to. That's so cool.
Then we move into the marketing phase, which is months four, five, and six, and that's where you're at right now, because when we're talking about launch, you always have to be like, "Marissa, I don't have anything to launch yet".
"It's not live yet. It's not built yet". And it's "Oh yeah. Oh yeah". You're going to have this extended marketing period. Some of the things that you've brought online are an Instagram, and what else are you doing for marketing and what did you learn most or take away most from the marketing phase?
J: Yeah, so I'm marketing both therapists and the user, but currently I'm wanting to build brand awareness, so building an audience around Instagram first, because adding TikTok or another one I like cannot handle all of it right now, but wanting some social cred on there.
You'll see a lot of me on there, pointing and doing all the things, but there soon will be the content because we have it already recorded. We continue to record courses and it'll be then the therapist that will be like plugged into our social media around that.
Email marketing is huge. In the copy, I feel like I'm really good at talking, but copy has just always been a struggle. Honing in that craft. Again, another learning lesson, time-space, again, I have two young kids. I need to be zoning out and like journaling. That's what it feels like, space for journaling.
We also did the Mom Summit with two other side hustlers and we sponsored that, I just pimped out my husband for his tech skills, which is great. That was so cool to be a part of a bigger thing, and we got a ton of emails, and we gave away a subscription.
I think the visibility of marketing is fun for me. As I'm building the app, I'm having to like…there are so many moving parts of talking to therapists, "Here's your script, blah, blah, blah" and it's going to be on-going. We launch in March and we're going to continue to add courses indefinitely.
We're going to be starting the podcast soon. We're on Pinterest. There are so many different avenues that can be overwhelming, but I'm like, "Here, we're starting here. We're starting here. We're focusing on this because that's all we can do right now". That's what it feels like, because we're not getting money in yet.
M: Interviewing these therapists, every time they record you're really, you're in this.
J: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's another piece is the financial resources which I think you do a really good job of. You're like, "I don't teach you how to do paid ads. Here's how you do it, and here's how you do it, and here's how you do it for free", which has been so helpful because again, I think on the outside looking in, it's "Oh, I gotta pay somebody to do this".
"I have to do paid ads. I have to have the capital or the money" and I think that's where visibility marking is 'chefs kiss'. Gold. It's how I actually saw you, right? It's how I found you and how I trusted you and that's going to be that marketing plan.
M: If it doesn't sell organically, ads aren't going to fix it. Ads just amplify what is. If it's not selling organically, you're just going to pay a crap ton of money for it to not sell through paid advertising. Let's learn and figure out how to do it organically.
It might be at a smaller scale - not even might. Of course, it's gonna be at a smaller scale, but it's working. Then let's throw gasoline on a fire that's actually burning and then we can scale that way if you want to invest in paid advertising. I want to emphasize profitability, sustainability. Let's build something that works. Then we can talk about scale.
J: Exactly. Full disclosure, I did hire a marketing team to take over Instagram at a lower monthly price for the consistency and accountability. Again, because that's my thing, I can't have the accountability.
What's been really helpful with that is I'm hearing from friends and families, they're like, "Wow, you're really doing it, you are. You're doing it". I'm like, "Oh my God. Yeah. I'm really doing it. Really doing it."
But in these other funnels of like podcast pitching and my own podcasts or this great bigger plan, I get to do that and that's easily accessible for me, which is important in not having financial resources yet to grow or expand on that.
M: Moving into Funnel Phase or, not Funnel Phase, Launch Phase, that's the phase that isn't necessarily supporting you right now like it is maybe other students because you're not launching until after the new year, but what's great is you will have lifetime access.
When you want to come back, you can always watch the videos that right now, you might be skimming because they're not exactly pertinent. When you're ready to launch, you can come back, but you are planning a giveaway event, which is going to be more of an audience builder but might have some conversion for you too.
Can you tell us about what you are taking away from the Launch Phase, at least right now, and then what you're planning for your giveaway and that kind of stuff?
J: Yeah, and it's not speaking to me directly right now. It has such an energy around it that I'm like, "Oh, I cannot hold this energy", and everyone's "ah, launch". You even talk about conserving your energy or noticing how or how to create your life around that time so you're not burnt out again.
I've been in and out, but I think the concepts and the marketing and the psychology around it is what I listen to. Is "okay, we're like aggregating the problem. We're doing this and we're doing that".
Warming your audience. Are they hot? Are they cold? It's still valuable information for me, but I just can't grasp it or turn it into something right now because I'm not there, but I don't feel left out. I don't feel rushed. I still feel like I'm getting something because there's still so much to learn.
That's how I feel. There's still so much, and I learned from other people's problems or other people's solutions or questions that they're asking. It's been really helpful. Even just like you say "Oh, you're gonna need a lot of energy" and then I'm like, "What does that mean?" and then I'm like, "Oh, you need a lot of energy".
M: Yeah. Yeah. We mentioned this on a couple of other student spotlights first we're talking about time management. That's the first question everybody has. How am I going to balance this time? But then we start talking about energy management and even resource management.
You've been so cool to talk about that. Who do I know? You knew a graphic designer, she helped you. You've found a marketing person to do your Instagram, right? Solving these problems in many ways. Not just by throwing money at it, but by having conversations.
We talk about delegating out chores. Either asking family members to help or hiring out that like meals for a while or are you just gonna be eating Burger King for a couple of weeks? Just whatever you need to do.
We talk about these things in a holistic experience because we don't launch, we don't build businesses in a vacuum. What is going on with our practices? What's going on with our lives? What's going on with the people who have their kids in soccer?
Two of my best friends have both their kids (they're Logan's age, they're five) and they're in soccer, and they're practicing four nights a week. They have a game on Saturday and a game on Sunday. I'm like, "No, thank you". All you soccer parents out there, you guys are champions.
J: Killing it.
M: Also, trying to run a business and build a second business with that. I realized that there is, that this is not the only thing you have committed to in your life. I would love it if it was, but it's not.
J: Yeah, and everyone's in the same boat, which again is like this really like big hug. We know you have a practice and you're running this and you have children, or you have soccer practice or at these things. Or you are taking care of your mom or whatever it is, right?
It did feel like they're all therapists and they are doing the same thing and we can do it together and even if it's hard, we can lift each other up. It's been really special.
M: Yeah. That's super cool. Two more things: One, if you just have any advice for anybody who's thinking about applying and their on the fence, what would you share with them? And then B, where can we follow how we get to this? Wait for this app to be live in just a couple of months.
J: Yeah. My advice, I would say: If you have a burning desire that there's something more for you and you are driven - everyone's really driven in this program, which has been cool to see - I would do it a hundred per cent, a thousand per cent.
I would pay more money. I would do it again. Oh, it was so hard but so good. I feel like I have the whole picture. I don't have just one piece.
I think that's really important is hearing about other programs. It's like a month or three months. I'm like, "I don't know, you must have just got one piece because I got the whole freaking path".
I got a whole big ass pie. I'm like, "Okay, now what do I do?" Or that I've created this pie together and now I'm going to go sell it. It feels so all encompassing is what I'm trying to say, that I would do it and I recommend it to people.
I say, "Oh, I've been in this program", that's how I started with every contributor, I'm like, "I've been in this program and this is what I'm launching" because it's been a huge part of accountability and launching and learning and everything. Just do it. Do it. If you are ready, do it. Do not wait because it's great.
M: That's so sweet. Where do we go? Is Instagram the best place or are there other places we should go?
J: Yeah, Instagram's probably the best place. It's @howwegetthru and through is spelled T H R U. That link has information on becoming a contributor or signing up for the newsletter.
You can do either/or and you can go to our website. It's just a one-page right now. But you can sign up to be a contributor also that way, but Instagram's probably the best right now and then we'll be launching our podcast soon.
M: For everybody whose listening and you're thinking maybe, I'm like, "Don't join my program". No, join my program. But if you're wanting some of this stuff to dip your toe into another income stream, that's really what Jen has built for you. You get to get compensated at the compensation level that you choose.
The more active you are in sharing the app, the more active you are in sharing your course or your program that you've contributed to the app, the more money you can make.
Or if you're not even interested in that, but you want to make a quick couple hundred bucks and you really care about putting quality content out into what Jen is building, you can be a contributor for that.
Then, when people are requesting you off the back, and you want to have a bigger program, that's what you need to have a side hustle.
J: It's a stepping-stone. If you're not already there, just go to Side Hustle because it'll change your life.
M: All of your clients are looking for staff, right? Do you have a website for this? Where should I go to learn more about that? Do you have a book recommendation?
I can't count how many times my clients were asking for other resources. Not only something that you can contribute to and make money from but also can be that legitimate one place full of resources for your clients and help for yourself too because yeah, we all need it.
Go and check out How We Get Through. We'll have all of Jen's links below in the show notes, and you can follow up and watch this journey unfold because I just know this is gonna be something really big.
J: Thank you so much for having me.
M: Thank you, Jen. Thanks for sharing and thanks for being honest about how it's been for you, and I think that's what's most valuable for the listeners, so I really appreciate that.
J: Thank you.
M: Awesome.
You guys, this episode was so good. Jen had me laughing. I teared up a couple of times. I got goosebumps multiple times. I just respect the hell out of Jen, she is in such integrity with her offer. She has not a selfish bone in her body. You can tell that her goal with how we get through is to be of service and to help.
She wants to serve therapists and she wants to serve the mainstream population in a cool, innovative, and generative way. I really love also Jen's outlook. As I said, when she said, "This won't be the last thing I do".
I literally got full-body goosebumps when she said that because she just has this outlook on things of the way that the timing is and we get 'woo', because Jen and I are both 'woo'.
The divine timing of it, that there is a bigger and greater purpose to all of this, and it just comes across in her outlook, in her personality and her mentality, but also in what she's building for the world.
Make sure to go check out how we get through on Instagram, and we'll have all of Jen's links below in the show notes, so you can click on them there. If you are somebody who wants to build out something like Jen, that there is something more calling to you, I would love for you to join us inside of Side Hustle.
We start January 23rd, and applications are officially open now for enrollment, and you can find those applications at marissalawton.com/side-hustle. Alright, until next episode guys, keep on rising.
