Side Hustle Spotlights with Annie McLaughlin
Do your entrepreneurial ideas feel disorganized?
If yes is your answer you’ll relate to Side Hustle alumni Annie, who came into the group with expertise, an existing offer, and passion for her mission.
She had all the right ingredients, but something was missing…
What she needed was a way to funnel her ideas into a cohesive offer to attract more clients.
Tune into the latest episode and find out how the Side Hustle Support Group helped her get there.
CLICK BELOW TO LISTEN!
Show Notes:
Hey, Risers. Welcome to Episode 178 of Empathy Rising. Today we are kicking off our Side Hustle Spotlights, where we will have episodes with current students who are going to share their whole experience in Side Hustle. I make them walk through phase by phase, or I invite them to walk through phase by phase and just share their biggest takeaways from our work together in Side Hustle, but also the challenges.
Today we're talking with Annie McLaughlin who is a behavior analyst. If any of you listeners are OTs, or not necessarily psychotherapists, Side Hustle is still a program that can work for you and Annie is going to be walking us through her experience inside of Side Hustle.
She is somebody who had got a little bit of stuff going on before she joined the program in terms of she had made a few sales of a program and she'd been marketing and things like that. What Annie shares is how Side Hustle worked as a mechanism to help her hone in her ideas, get a laser focus, as well as build the systems in the business to make it replicable, to make it automated, and to make it something that was set up for sustainability.
I invite you to listen to Annie's story and if you are somebody who is considering Side Hustle Support Group for 2023 (I don't always say that all out loud - or out all long) - If you're somebody who is considering Side Hustle Support Group for 2023, go ahead to marissalawton.com/sidehustle and fill out that application and we'll see if we'll be working together in the new year.
Marissa (M): Hey, Risers. Welcome back to the Empathy Rising Podcast. We are here for episode number 178 with a current Side Hustle student, Annie McLaughlin. Think I said that right? We practiced before I hit 'record.' I did my best. We are going to talk about her honest journey through Side Hustle, what it was like to be a Side Hustle student, the ups and downs, the hard parts, and the fun parts.
Then she's going to share with us everything that she's created and what she's bringing into the world as her side hustle. Annie, if you want to go ahead and do a more formal introduction, where you're at, your practice (because it's different than a lot of our listeners), and just what you do clinically and then we can dive into the side hustle stuff.
Annie (A): Sure. Great. Thanks, Marisa for having me on. I was a special ed teacher. I started in the classroom working with kids with high support needs and then I went back actually and got my doctorate in special education.
I've focused most of my work around special education and I'm a board-certified behavior analyst, so a BCBA, and what that means is a lot of my colleagues work directly with kids with disabilities, either in a clinic or in-home.
I did a little bit of that, but as I started to have a family, I really realized that those hours were after school and on the weekends and it just didn't vibe with what I needed for my family.
What I do now is I am an IEP advocate, so I work directly with families navigating the special education process through 504s or IEPs, and I also do consulting with school districts as well, so I like to keep my feet wet in the classroom by working directly with teachers and staff that way.
But the vast majority of the work that I do is outside of what many behavior analysts do in that direct kind of clinical work, and work mostly with families around the IEP process.
M: Yeah. I remember...we've got to forecast back over a year ago now, and I remember when your application came in, you were like, I'm not a psychotherapist so I hope I'm in the right spot, and I was like, "Absolutely. It's still that one to $1 for hours, helping people individually, and that's what Side Hustle helps you scale beyond".
I remember in your application seeing that you already had this entrepreneurial mindset and you had some of these things already going on and it was about, all these pieces are scattered, how do we put them into kind of one funnel or one journey for this customer?
It's been fun to work with you on that because you had some sales of a program before and you had some things going on. What drew you to Side Hustle, participating in a nine-month program?
A: Sure. The first thing was nine months seemed like a long time to me. When I was looking around, I was like, "I need somebody to help me, but I need somebody who understands this one-to-one mentality and trying to move away from that". I was really drawn to it.
Way back when, I actually was trying to figure out how to raise my rates because I felt really stuck with the rates that I was in. Most of the support that I found was through psychotherapists and other people on their websites of "This is what you do, this is what you say".
When I was trying to figure out what my next steps were going to be trying to move from that one-to-one aspect, I was drawn back to the kind of this psychotherapist realm.
I had decided that I was stuck in my thoughts of, "Okay, I know I say the same thing over and over again", and when you say the same thing over and over again, surely you should figure out how to reach a larger group of people. I did just basically do a little tiny campaign.
I put on a couple of Facebook groups that I was gonna run this group program hoping to find other behavior analysts who wanted to learn about special education, and I got a lot of interest.
About 10 people signed up just for that first session, which was really fun to run. A smaller, six-week session with people. But through that, we got so many more questions that then I ran it again, but I was just doing this one very specific piece and I just felt like I needed more tools in my toolbox.
I had no idea about funnels and webpages. I have a webpage for my practice, but it's just very static and it stands there rather than what the purpose of it is really.
That's why I was really drawn to Side Hustle was just… it seemed very systematic, but then also you talked a lot about the flexibility of when things come up in life and that's definitely happened for me, a couple of rounds of COVID with my family and myself.
M: You're just starting to feel better now?
A: I still feel like I have it in my throat, so I sound a little...
M: No, you sound fine. Yeah, I think what is cool that you're bringing to the table is; we talk about this a little bit of hunting versus farming, and that's what you had been doing in the past of hunting for these sales.
And if you hunt, you eat for a day, and if you farm, you eat for a season or lifetime, whatever the saying is. You were successfully hunting. You're like, "Let me just throw this thing together and I'll make some money" and you were doing that really well.
But coming into Side Hustle was looking for more of “okay, how am I able to make projections out of this”? How am I able to look at metrics and say, "Alright, if I have this many people, I can predict this many sales for this round, and then what happens in the future rounds?" and make it more longevity-based and sustainability based?
A: Absolutely, and I think doing it surrounded by other people also has been really powerful to see people succeed and try something new and be like, "Oh, maybe I can do that too", and then also, "Oh, did you write that email?" and just being able to go back and forth to have other people to bounce ideas off of as well. It's been really helpful.
M: I remember you bring up the nine months (and I have episodes on this if you were to scroll back in the archives), but making the pivot from six months to nine months when I knew in my heart, this is the right decision. This is the best way I can lead my students. This is the best way I can put this information together.
But then you look out at the marketplace and everybody wants a shorter program. Everybody wants it to be done faster and quicker and here I am making my program longer.
It was something that as the facilitator, I went through a little "Oh, I know this is the right decision, but it feels really out of step a little bit", but for the most part, as people who's the one who's watching you go through it, it's so much better.
Share your honest opinion: what do you feel about the nine months? You thought it was a little bit long going in, but now that you're four weeks away from finishing.
A: I wish it could be 11 months. That's just kinda...it is a lot of learning, but also, the flexibility piece has been huge. Watching the recorded videos that you send out and then being able to join the different calls has been helpful in that it's all recorded.
I feel like there's a lot of information there, but it's not too overwhelming. I think the nine months is great. I do think the build weeks that you built in were really important because I didn't want to get behind.
I don't know if it was a kid sick, something was happening that was just big and took a lot of time. I think being able to just focus on, "okay, we're not learning anything new. I'm just gonna spend this week building my pieces out".
M: And in full transparency, that was new for this round. In the last round, which was the first nine-month round for 2021, we didn't have that. They were building and then I was still releasing new material.
That was the biggest feedback I got from the 2021 students was: it's hard to have these things to do, but then you're getting new information at you. That was a pivot, setting up things for to come when we start talking about Annie's program, that was a pivot that I made based on student feedback.
This is something I really want to model to you guys, to my current students, and to the listeners; you don't know everything until you're doing it. Did I know that we needed a two-week content break even just for building? Not the first time. Did I build it in when I got feedback from the students about it? Absolutely.
Detaching from perfection is a big lesson that we all go through and I go through it too, "Okay, I wanted it to go this way. It's actually flowing better or working better or selling better this way so let me adjust and take in that feedback".
I think it's cool that you bring that up so that I can share that it wasn't part of the original plan, but it's something that seems to be helpful going forward.
A: Yeah, for sure. Once you get running, I can't believe I've been doing this for almost nine months. I definitely feel like I have, I also didn't think I had the time to do it for nine months.
I think when I was thinking about one of the biggest blocks for me was "oh my gosh, this is really scary. I'm gonna have to block off this time for nine months to be able to do it" and really, it's shown me that, again, I have more time than I think.
M: If you don't mind sharing, you also have some big things coming up. This is your busy season for work, you shared yesterday or the day before that it's your husband's biggest busy season at work. You also have one of your employees going on maternity leave. All this is all happening.
A: Guess what I found out on Friday? My virtual assistant is gonna move on to a full-time job. She does most of my scheduling for my clinical work. We have a backup plan that we're gonna move to, but it is feeling very busy right now.
I just want to stick with the schedule, I do feel like the real-time support has been great, but then watching some of my colleagues very confidently just decide they were going to do their piece in January as well, has also been... you've done a good job of letting us run it multiple timelines and not people don't feel bad if they're going to do their stuff a little bit later or anything like that.
M: Yeah. The joke I like to make with you guys is I wish we all were just moving to an island and building businesses together because that would be my dream come true. Let's go to some tropical location and just do this all day, but I have to realize that it doesn't work that way for all of us.
Some people have more free time and some people have less. I've had students that are taking care of aging parents. I have students that have little ones at home. I have students that also teach at universities or whatever. None of this happens in a vacuum.
We're all bringing our own experiences and our own walks of life to the program. That's where I say for me, you can take the therapist - or you could take the girl out of the therapist, but you can't take the therapist out of the girl because I'm always going to have that meet-you-where-you're-at kind of nature.
We're all working on a schedule, but, and I say this in week one, we all end up on our own timelines and the students are like, "Oh yeah, whatever.
I'm going to be on time. I'm going to be right on track. That's me. I'm the A-plus student". Then we get four months in, six months in and everyone's on their own timeline anyway.
I think it's really cool that everybody's able to pick their own path and stick with it. With that said, you are one of the ones launching in real time though, so can you share a little bit about that? Because everything's coming to a head for you and these other things are happening in your life. What's that like?
A: I think we've done... a few weeks ago, I'll never forget you said, "Okay, so we need to plan for this. This is coming, it's getting closer. What are you guys going to do in your life?"
Because it is just a little bit more work than when we're going through the course, and my husband owns a distillery and so leading up to Thanksgiving and Christmas, that's a really busy season.
He's traveling a lot to do events and promotions and things like that. We actually bought a freezer, which was something we'd been looking at. We live in Baltimore, Maryland in a row home, so spaces are at a premium, but I had been eyeing where the strollers had been kept for a really long time in a closet.
Sure enough, we bought a freezer just a couple of weeks ago and we are making double batches of things just as we make them so that I'll have a little bit more time there. We also brought our former nanny back on Thursdays to help and just be in the house, another set of hands.
There's always something, whether it's a practice, I have three kids there's always something happening and I just needed a little help, so just planned for it.
M: I love that you bring that up because when we're building businesses in Side Hustle, the first thing we talk about is time management, but there's more to it than just time management.
There's energy management. Sometimes we hire things out in our businesses, or sometimes we make changes at home and it's still delegation. We don't necessarily think of the changes we make at home as delegation.
Having teenagers pick up a little bit more chores for a couple of weeks, bringing in help with the kiddos, or even just... what did we do? We started using Freshly.
We don't use them anymore, because we found some more space to cook because both of us enjoy it, but there was a time when we were using Freshly meals and things like that still met my dietary stuff but were relatively tasty in a pinch.
Some of these changes that we make so that we can facilitate the growth and the goals and the things we want to happen.
I think when we're stuck in kind of a fixed mindset, it's like, "Oh, I can't make that happen because I don't have the help at home or because my husband's traveling or because of this".
But when we can flip it into the growth mindset, "Okay. What changes do I need to make so that I still reach my goals or so that what I want still can be a possibility?"
A: For sure. I've had to sometimes just put my head down and say I got to do it. I just have to write this email. Also, know when to be flexible. I was supposed to have an email go out today, hey, we'll go out tomorrow.
M: Yay. Me too. Mine's going out tomorrow morning if any of you didn't get an email from me today, that's why.
A: Exactly. Exactly. I normally have two different emails. Both go out on Monday and I got one done, and I was just feeling a little tired this weekend and decided I needed to rest and I have time Tuesday morning to write and send my next email so that's what I'll do.
M: For me, it's like I... and I was just having this conversation with Josh. He just left to go get the girls from school and it was like, I felt stuck today energetically.
It's like I had, I have two to-do lists because one thing that's really neat for your guys' round is I've been building my side hustle right alongside you, which has been cool to be back in that brand new starting position, working along it with you guys.
I have my Rooted to-do list and then I have my Side Hustle to-do list and I was looking at both today and I was like; I feel like if I choose one, I'm turning my back on the other.
That's what it felt like for me and so I just energetically didn't choose anything. It wasn't like I didn't know what to do and it wasn't like I didn't have the time to do it. I felt like I was betraying one business for another and it was a really weird experience.
I'm just going to write my email tomorrow because I couldn't get through that today. That's not a time management issue, it's an energy-management or a motivation-management issue. We come across all of those in the course of the nine months.
A: Absolutely. But being able to, again, I think the community piece of Side Hustle is fascinating to be able to sign on and people, somebody might be like, "I'm great, I'm so excited. I got somebody registered on my email list and I just put it up" or something along those lines.
But then also somebody to sign on and say, "I had a hard day" and to be able to tell somebody, but because maybe the email list didn't work, it's "let's talk about that".
I think the support is both for celebration, but also for discouragement because it is something new and some things may not work or we're, so I think many of us are used to getting a hundred A-plus kind of people.
When something doesn't come back with... you sent an email to 200 people when only a hundred opened it. We have to go back and say, what are the numbers? How many people are supposed to open it?
You remind us that would be a good open rate, but just having that background knowledge from you is really critical.
M: I think you hit the nail on the head with one kind of experience that I see in the program of that A-plus student, that one who's "I'm gonna get it all just right and it's gonna be all on time" and then I also have the other students who, they may have some of that experience, but they also have "I've been a therapist for a decade" or whatever, "I haven't been new at something since like internship or practicum or years and years ago" and it's hard to be new again.
That's the experience I had this round when I was launching Rooted or bringing Rooted to life is; I'm brand new at this again, I'm talking to a brand new audience. I'm sending my first email to a new audience all over again and it's scary to be new.
Did you have any of that apprehension or because you already had a little bit of the audience coming in, did you feel less nervous about that?
A: Oh no. No. I've dealt with plenty of nerves. I think the new piece for me was talking about this part of what I wanted to do. To help other behavior analysts move into another part of their career or something like that, which to me - I think it was more of whether or not I had the expertise in the experience to help.
I know I have because I've done it before, but then just when you start, I can't find another behavior analyst who has done this. I think feeling new in that manner of helping and leading people down this path was/has been pretty scary, and nerve-wracking.
But just to do it anyway. I've had a couple of people ask some really good questions, but not all the big scary stuff that I was making up in my head.
M: We have this discussion multiple times through the program, but pretty early on we talk about the difference between the guru and the guide. Everybody thinks they want the guru until they meet a guru and they're like, "No, that's not what I want anymore".
They want that person who's going to walk through it with them. If you don't have the answer, being honest about it, "I don't know that right away, but I know where to find it", or "I can get it to you by the end of the day" or whatever.
I think that comes across a lot more relatable and somebody who I'd want to learn from and work with than "this is the answer", and they confidently spout it off, but it's wrong.
You joined Side Hustle because of how it was a system and how it was gonna fill in some of those gaps that you didn't necessarily have when you were doing a lot of it on your own. Let's walk through phase by phase. When you came up in phase one, that's when we put the program together.
We figure out the name, we figure out what our curriculum is going to be. Did 'Pivot', which is the name of your program now, did it follow what you had been launching? Or was it a morph of what you had been doing before?
A: Can it be both? I think the scope and sequence of what I was covering and the content stayed the same, but as we were going through the process, I think the parts aligned themselves a little bit more. Rather than feeling "Oh, we're going to talk about promoting your services or how to talk about your services in week four", that should go in week one.
I think I just moved a lot of pieces around because you helped us identify some of those barriers that our customers might wanna address and things like that. I think that the pieces were there, but I think being able to align them better would help with the flow of the program.
M: Yeah, because start by doing validation interviews and talking with people who are potential customers. Then that can be nerve-wracking for people who are like "I'd rather just do a survey or I'd rather just do an email".
What was your validation interview process? Did you do the survey? I can't remember everybody, and it was almost a year ago, so remind me.
A: Sure. I went on Facebook. I have a current kind of Facebook group and I just posted, "Hey, listen, penny for your thoughts" kind of thing and ask people to sign up. I had over 40 people respond.
I stopped at 15 just because of the time, and I did notice that repetition in what they were saying. I did meet and ask them all the questions about why, if they were interested in IEP advocacy hadn't they taken that next step. . and it revealed, a couple of major stuck points that they were having.
M: Yeah. Through the validation interviews, that's what kind of helped you rearrange some of these modules and put them in a different order and see that there is a market for this.
You had known that there was a market because you had been selling before, but getting to hear from the market of what they were looking for, did that make a difference in your approach going forward?
A: I think it did, on how readily a lot of people wanted more information. It did help me kind of address some of that scarcity mindset of "are there enough behavior analysts out here who might want to be IEP advocates?" because so many people were so excited about the possibility and so many people signed up so quickly.
M: Yeah. Then from there, we move on to branding, which is what a lot of people have a love-hate relationship with month two.
People either love it cause they get to bring out their creative side, or they're just, like, really intimidated by the creative process, which is why we have Shayna and we have the graphic designer on staff to help with the template. How was the branding process for you?
A: Branding was really hard for me. I think my analytical nature is just something that I go to pretty easily, but Shayna had some templates and examples and so I worked through those and thought about what I was drawn to most, and then also what I thought my customers would be drawn to.
Shayna had available the extra hours that we could buy with her and I used an hour and it was great. I just had it all there and she just moved some things around and made the font a different shape and it really came together really nicely. But it was hard for me and so I appreciated having those templates and being able to work with Shayna.
M: Yeah, and that's totally optional. Shayna's always available for extra services, but what's included in Side Hustle is those templates and then having her feedback and go back and forth with you and in terms of you submit things for design review, and then she's able to review them.
I love that you knew, "hey, this is somewhere that I want some extra help" and then I love that the program was able to provide you with the place to get that extra help. When you try (and believe me, I've done this) go out and try and find a graphic designer and you're like, first of all, where do I look?
Then you go to these business groups, "Hey, does anybody have a graphic designer?" and then you get like a hundred replies, and then that's even more overwhelming. I love that Shayna was somebody who you could just, even though you wanted a little more help, she was there for you and I think that's really cool.
A: It was great, and even the working off of the templates was such a great start. I just felt like what would take me an hour she would do in three minutes.
M: Yeah. I've seen her in Photoshop, just whip around and I'm like, "I don't even know how..." or in Designer, whatever she's using and I'm just like, "wow. That's pretty incredible".
We wrap up phase three by building out your funnel. This was something that you didn't have coming into Side Hustle that we were looking at: How do we make this automated so that we continue to have the leads come in, the leads end up on the waitlist or the leads end up purchasing where we want them to go and have that process that you can step out of a bit.
Can you tell us a little bit about building that first funnel? Was it fun for you? Did you hate it?
A: Sure. The funnel option that I chose was a quiz, which - I love quizzes. I love taking them. I think, for the most part, I liked writing it. I just wanted to also match hopefully what I do in the program of being approachable and funny. I have an emoji question.
If we take ourselves too seriously, we'll get burnt out, kind of thing, so let's have some fun along the way. I had a good time writing the quiz and then getting feedback on the wording of things and just making sure that I had all the options leading in the right direction.
It's been fun too to have other behavior analysts take the quiz and say, "Oh, can I take it again too? What are the other options?"
M: What's the tripwire?
A: The trip wire is a webinar, that's the right word, online prerecorded video on some private pay.
M: Okay. You could do two tripwires here because if they're asking you - sorry, I'm getting into strategy now. If they're asking you "what are the other options?" well have the $27 one be the "curious about all the other options? Grab this!" and then upsell your private pace at something for 67 bucks.
A: Yeah. Yeah, I think as I'm taking notes along the way of what I'll go back and look at, I can look at my trip wire because I think it, I haven't had too many people buy it, but also just whether or not that information was useful at the time.
They were more curious, I think about the other options. What other stuck things? Or what should I do if I'm not moving in that direction?
I think some of the private pay pieces are just the next step, which is the webinar that I'm hosting in just a couple of weeks. I think that's where people needed an intermediate and I took too big of a step.
M: We wouldn't know that if we hadn't done it. This is where we're challenging that fixed mindset of that a plus mindset "It's gotta be just right". We've got to put something out there, we've got to get the feedback and the data back.
The data right now is showing, "oh, they're asking this question and they're not purchasing this at the rate that I wanted them to purchase. Can I give them something else that answers the question they're asking?" But we wouldn't have even seen them ask that question if we hadn't put something out.
It's all an experiment, and that's what we have to get used to as entrepreneurs. We don't always have the answer. Sometimes things go gangbusters, and sometimes things...I don't like the word flop, but don't perform like we wanted to. But the value, yes, we're all here to make money, but the value is also in the data.
A: You're talking to the right person as a behavior analyst, and we do lots of data analysis. I think where I was in the program when I put the trip wire together is I was fairly swimming. I threw something together.
I think that part of working not going to that fixed mindset is, I have wanted to go back and change it just to get it better or get it right and I just keep going. You need to keep going to make sure you can do this all, for me on time has been important.
M: Yeah. Being able to pick and choose, I think that's one of the cool things about the lifetime access. Once you get through your launch, which is ramping up right now, and at the time of recording your pre-launch.
When this goes live, you'll be open and making the choice; "okay, this is more important to me right now. I have lifetime access to Side Hustle when I wanna fix my trip wire and like I'm going back post-launch. I can go back and watch the tripwire lesson again".
It's always going to be available to you and that's one of the things that I think is cool because it is a nine-month program and there's so much in there and even if you're somebody who watched every single lesson and every single replay, you're still going to miss stuff. Being able to go back through it or just have the support if and when you want to make changes.
A: Absolutely, and I think for the opt-in, there were so many different ones that we could have chosen. I think this time I tried a quiz if the next time I wanna try a pdf. To be able to go back in that course room, make sure I understand the details that would be pertinent. I appreciate the lifetime access for sure.
M: Phase two is the marketing phase, and you were already doing a bit of marketing before you had your own Facebook group and you had... what did you have? Instagram or something else going on before?
A: Just started Instagram during this time.
M: Yeah. Tell me a little bit, how were you marketing before Side Hustle? What are you doing either more of or differently now that you're doing Side Hustle, and what was the marketing phase like for you?
A: Sure. Before Side Hustle I ran a Facebook group, but I would say it was more for just basic information. I wasn't talking about anything. It was just more "here's a question, how do you approach it?"
It wasn't too active but mostly focused on other behavior analysts who had some curiosity in educational consulting or IEP advocacy. That educational consulting piece has, as part of marketing, I have really leaned into just calling myself an IEP advocate because people understand what that is rather than what is an educational consultant. That was clarified during the marketing phase.
What I did was learn Instagram very quickly and, it is definitely not perfect. I think the first time I was looking at doing a reel and trying to move my lips when the voice of somebody else was up and was like, "Oh no" but I knew I just needed to do it.
The structure that you gave us to pull everything together so that there is some thread through all of our posts and how to post, and all those different pieces was really helpful.
I do have to remind myself at times, that there is a strategy rather than just jumping on and doing a random post or something like that.
It's been messy because I wasn't even an Instagram real user. I would follow some people, but I was not an Instagram user, so I was learning what plus signs were and all those different pieces.
M: Yeah. Why did you choose social and why did you choose Instagram?
A: I chose social, I chose Instagram too, I think, to try to branch out and push beyond something that I was comfortable with. I think that's good. Knowing that I had your support and the support of the other people in Side Hustle. If I was going to try anything, now was the time.
I'd done Facebook and I still value the connections I make on Facebook with colleagues for sure, but I really wanted to try something new. I think Instagram, I like the visual components of it. I like the video pieces. I had followed some people who I thought provided some good information, so I thought that was just the route to go.
M: Yeah. Cool. I love that you, one thing you've not ever tried to do is to... I don't use the word 'push', but to reach. What is a growth point for me?
And you're like, "Alright, we gotta do this on video. You think that's best? Okay. I'm going for it" and just some of these things that you've not held yourself back a lot. You've really gone for it, which I think is admirable and cool to watch.
A: Thanks. It was one of those things that, when I decided to join, after our call I was like, "okay, I'm, if I'm gonna do this, I'm going to do it. I'm gonna make sure to jump in the deep end" and hoped that you guys were the floaties that were there to make sure I had all the pieces put together.
M: Would you say that felt true for you?
A: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I would say, floaties and ladders and all of the things, I haven't felt like I was drowning or unsupported or anything like that.
M: Cool. Do you know—you might not know off the top of your head, so you can give just ranges or estimates or whatever—but what has been your audience growth since Side Hustle compared to before?
A: Okay. So I do know because I'm a data person. I would say one thing I need to do is put some limits on how often I check. But my Instagram started at zero and I am at, I think, about 370.
M: That's awesome for starting in June.
A: Yeah. I would say this has been two and a half months of regular posting.
M: Wow, so like July-ish more.
A: Yeah, I know. I always stop and think where are we? I'm happy with that. I think you also help us pick the metric that we want to see. It's not a vanity metric of how many watches. That is fun to see when you open up, and one of my reels had 11,000.
Many have had 3 to 5,000 in the couple. Many actually, probably more - about half have probably between 1 and 300. But I think those 100-300 are people that the message is important, not just somebody scrolling through for the music.
M: When I share my metrics of like how many people listen to this podcast each week, compare that to, I don't know, all these other podcasts that have like tens of thousands of downloads a day or a week. I'm getting 500 downloads a week, but if those 500 people were in my living room, holy crap, that'd be a lot of people!
Those 500 people are all in the therapeutic fields, which is so much more valuable when you're talking to, maybe you're talking to a small number in comparison, but a small number of the right people is going to be so much more valuable for you than these vanity metrics. A lot of people who just found it maybe entertaining or found it cute or cool, but aren't gonna turn into buyers.
A: Right. Yeah, exactly.
M: Now we're in phase three, which is the launch phase. This is where (I don't wanna say shit hits the fan) it's still pretty structured and I try and keep it as organized as possible.
But you guys are all... for me as the facilitator, you're all launching - a lot of you are launching with different methods. We have a lot of challenges this round you. It's fun to see what trends happen. We have a lot of challenges this round. In rounds past, we've had a lot of summits in, in other rounds we've had a lot of webinars.
Everybody's doing a different thing, and then we have a lot of people on different times. Out of all the students, I think there are 12 of you that are on the timeline, the real timeline.
Then everyone else is like November, December, January, February, have picked the time that lines up best for them and when they should start their programs. It's a lot to facilitate for me, but I know it's also a lot for you guys to go through.
Can you share the launch experience and what it's been like? You're still pre-launch now, but how is it to follow the launch process that's outlined in the course?
A: I'm super grateful for how linear it is and for the, "no, seriously, you need to write these emails even though they seem like they're far away" because I do think that has been really helpful.
Trusting that process for the timeline and where things feel like we should be spending our time on but we need to make sure that we're writing things to be able to submit to get feedback. I think your prioritization of the timeline has been really helpful.
M: Yeah, and designing the curriculum for phase three is interesting because it's I could have done it at the timeline of your guys' audience. That feels like it makes more sense because that's how we consume information, but then it would be tight turnarounds for you guys.
I had to think, how am I gonna deliver this for you so it's on when you need to be doing it? It feels disjointed because your audience is seeing one thing, but you're working almost three, four weeks ahead of your audience sometimes and it's "wait, where am I?" but it makes sense because
I recognize that this is a side hustle and you guys aren't going to want to write Tuesday's sales email Monday night or Tuesday morning. If you had nothing else going on, maybe you would want to be doing it that way. I don't even want to be doing it that way when I'm in my business full-time.
Having it be a little off step, it feels awkward at first, but it ends up making sense when you see it all play out.
A: Sure. I work really well with batching and so being able to set a portion of time and just get into the Side Hustle frame of mind and just work. What's interesting is this is the email I didn't do when I was batching, it's the one that's going to be a day late if you will.
It's not really late. I didn't get it done because I ran out of time. I have worked on that batching piece and that's helped to get things going even though it's usually for multiple weeks down the road.
M: Yeah. At the time of recording do you want to share range or estimate - how many people are on your waitlist? How many people are registered for your event, which we still have a few more weeks to promote?
Tell us what your event is going to be and then I'd also just really love a few minutes for you to tell us, what is IEP advocacy?
I know you're talking to behavior analysts, but I'm curious if psychotherapists could benefit from this too because a lot of my listeners work in schools or work with school-aged kids, so this could also be something that would be interesting for them.
A: Yeah, sure. You're going to have to remind me of all of the questions there, sorry.
M: Share your metrics going into your launch. Waitlist metrics, hype event metrics. Talk to us about the webinar that you have planned.
A: Sure. We'll start there. I have currently 54 people on my waitlist which I'm really jazzed about.
M: You might not have this exact figure, but how many of those came through the funnel, and how many were signing up from just the wait list page? Because I know you had two options.
A: About 25-ish came through my funnel, and then others just more direct sign up, and then since being able to go directly to the webpage because people are like, "I hear you have this thing, let me sign up" approach.
For the webinar that I'm doing, I think I'm having about 70 people coming to the webinar.
M: Yeah, and you still have two weeks to promote that?
A: Yes. Which I'm really excited about. I've already had one person purchase before the cart was even really open, but they really wanted to buy it. I was like, "let's go for it!"
M: Yes, I love that. This is what it means to be so keyed into your market. I want listeners to know this doesn't happen every time, but you came into Side Hustle with some things already in the works, so we weren't starting from zero with you.
That's something to keep in mind. But also, this audience because it's what you were looking for so you can then make great predictions of what they're looking for, what your experience was like.
Then you can talk to that experience because it's a shared experience with them. This is when we get that kind of just buzz because people want what you have.
A: Absolutely. I was super excited too, it's funny that you asked about other providers because I just got a private message today from a speech therapist, who has worked in schools and said, "Is there any way I could also register?"
Now I will say on my sales page it says that if you're a behavior analyst, you should be a behavior analyst to join the program but I think that what that target is that there's some background knowledge in data collection, in being analytical in your approach in that one-on-one working with kids.
I would say just like you were able to also accept a behavior analyst, I do think I'll try a couple if they come in, particularly the speech pathologist was really jazzed, so I do think if people reach out or feel like they have some good background knowledge.
I just don't want parts of it to be confusing because I'm not going to spend a lot of time on direct. You've been great at that though.
M: No, but that could be another course, like how I had Side Hustle first, and then I realized people need Space Holder. The people, the students who have gone through Space Holder just have so much more success in Side Hustle.
That's why I give it to them for free when they register in Side Hustle because I feel like they, it's just a prereq basically.
Pivot can be your main program, but if you find that, obviously the behavior analysts, they're gonna have this analytical background, but if do find that OT, psychotherapists, PTs, speech therapists, if they're drawn to what you're saying, you can make a prerequisite course for them that teaches them a little bit more about "here's what I need you to track" or learn how to do.
A: Yeah, that would be great. I'll put that on my January list. Because I'm hoping I've had a couple of school psychologists reach out to me because some of their licensing in different states would allow them to do this, where they couldn't necessarily practice outside of schools.
I think that could definitely work. The other interesting question I had from a potential customer was whether or not it would be pertinent to somebody out of the United States. That was a difficult question. I had to lean into it a little bit.
Actually, I'm going to have her join and she's gonna give me specific feedback on ways to think more globally in some of the approaches because special education is based on federal law in the United States.
It is different around different countries, but there are parts of just being an advocate and helping kids that need some sort of specially designed instruction that could definitely go across borders.
M: Yeah, and Lucille is in Netherlands right now, and Nicola is in UK right now. I've had foreign students and I've also had students like yourself and I've had OTs and stuff like that.
What I answer is, "predominantly the program is written for psychotherapists in the US. However, what I do know is if you have a question for me and I don't know the answer right off the bat, I'll get with you and we'll figure it out together". That's how I make those students feel like I can still be of value to them.
If you get somebody in a different license scope or within a different place, you can say, "here's what I look for", and what I have also found in the US is, we can say, I don't know what word I want to use, 'conservative', uptight, whatever. More regulatory than the other countries of students that I've worked with.
A lot of times if they're meeting what I'm teaching, they're going above and beyond what they have to do in their country. Now I can't speak for special ed, but that's just what I have found. You might find something similar that you're well prepared to serve those people.
A: Yeah. I'm looking forward to it, and there's always more to learn.
M: Yeah. So tell us what is, if anybody's listening—as I said, they might work in schools or they might be really interested in this—tell us a little bit about what is IEP advocacy, what are you teaching in Pivot? Then we'll go from there.
A: Sure. So IEP advocacy, the way that I've framed it is about supporting parents as they go through the special education process.
In order to do that, you really have to understand where the parents are in their knowledge of the special education process because it is fraught with policies and procedures and laws and helping translate the values and needs of the family for their child into, "okay, this is how we follow the policy, procedure, format of the I E P", which is the document that is developed through this process for special education and specially designed instruction.
It's a lot of understanding the background of the policies and procedures and meeting with parents, but my absolute favorite part is also observations in the classroom. I get to go in and see what's working, maybe what's not working right, and then be able to work with the family around how to develop suggestions or recommendations that are meaningful.
Also being able to be implemented and I think that's where being a former teacher, I bring that into the conversation. I'm not going to give you every recommendation under the sun that are unreasonable. That's been helpful. Then, there is this cyclical process because every year if you have an IEP, you have to have it reviewed at least annually.
What I find is if we just meet annually there may be some mistakes or things that are forgotten. I have a regular process of meeting with families and doing observations to make sure they feel fully informed about what's going on inside the classroom, and then also inside that document of the IEP.
M: Yeah. I remember we've had this conversation multiple times about Sawyer's process, and Sawyer has a 504 for her vision and so she has to sit in the front of the classroom and has to have all of her worksheets and stuff have to be large print, and all that stuff.
The first year when she entered kindergarten, they were throwing these terms, these special education terms, "we're going to evaluate her for this and for that". All it did was trigger me all over again.
Is something wrong with my baby? If I had at that point a translator who could have said, "this is what that means, this is what they're looking for. It doesn't mean your kid is going to suck at school and never have a life". All these things that - I was spinning.
I had no idea how to handle any of this. If I had somebody just translating that for me, it just would've made that whole process better. I really trust our school district and I feel great with the people that Sawyer works with who are watching this.
We do only meet annually, but when we move to Arizona, that's a whole 'nother thing where I'm going to have to go back to brand new people never met, and explain all this stuff again. Open up all these trauma responses for me again.
I just really feel like having that person that's there, that's your advocate, your representative because, luckily our school situation has been great, but I've heard people where the school has been like, "this is the way it has to be done".
The school is almost steamrolling them, and they don't know what questions they can ask, and you're given this paper like, "here's your rights", but I don't know what the F that means.
I'm like, "cool, those are my rights" but that means nothing to me when I'm a beginner at this. As somebody who's gone through the process, I see such value in having somebody who's your advocate in the process.
A: Yeah, and helping you understand that yes you may need this for your child, but also what the school is saying is not wrong. They're saying that they can't do X. That's a little wishy-washy because of the kid's needs, that they should be able to do it. They may be saying that they can't do it because it is against the law. It is against the procedure or policy.
Sometimes the school is right and the parents are right, and we have to figure it out. I definitely do that collaborative approach to make sure that we're all moving in the best direction for the kid and definitely I spend a lot of time with parents really digging into the definition and meanings of certain words.
Does that mean if I say yes—I feel like I need a lot of charts—if I say yes to this, does that mean they won't have a diploma? Or if I say yes to letting them sit in front of the classroom, what does that mean? If their friends are in the back, are they going to be left out?
All these different pieces that if that's their concern, then we come up with a solution to bring to the table and rather than just sit on that concern and not really know about, is it a big concern or is it a little concern? Is there something to do? Is it reasonable?
I will tell you, so many parents ask me, is it reasonable to ask them to do this? I don't even know. A lot of times it's, "Absolutely we can ask them for this".
M: What are you teaching in Pivot then? How are you bringing this field, which some people don't even know is like an actual field? How are you bringing this income stream, this field to people's awareness and what are you teaching in Pivot to make them able to do this?
A: Sure. So in Pivot, it's a six-week group program, so really focusing on the first step of, do you have the right business set up? A lot of people work for large agencies and clinics, and so really just making sure that they feel comfortable and confident on their own.
Looking at liability insurance and those pieces. We look at some of the business components as many of the students are looking to add an additional income and don't have their own business yet, but everybody is looking towards that as this possibly being the first step.
Then we get into the components of special education. In general, behavior analysts are not trained in special education, so they do need some foundational knowledge, but as a behavior analyst, you can work in school. Some people show up with a lot of information. I try to frame it all from the: how could this be used from an advocacy perspective?
Because you could go get a whole masters in special education. We don't have that time. How do you use that information then to help to make sure that the child's getting what they need?
As well as talking about the cycle of advocacy support and making sure that you're with your clients as much as much as they need, but also to be cognizant of the cost for the family as well.
Then really diving into, what does it mean to be an advocate? How can you be collaborative but negotiate? Being able to prioritize certain aspects of what you're asking for, as well as part of that piece actually, also knowing when you might need somebody else, like a special ed attorney.
Knowing when you've taken the family as far as you possibly can, and you need to send them to a referral as well so that we're not practicing law. That's a really big component of making sure you're not practicing law.
The question I get is, how do I know where to find clients? Making sure that the behavior analysts are competent in knowing where to find clients, that clients come in, and that process runs pretty smoothly.
M: Cool. Yeah. If my listeners are interested "Oh, there's this whole thing I could be doing inside schools and advocating" because I know that advocacy is a big, strong suit of a lot of clinicians and clinical training, where can they find more information from you? Where can they go to learn more about this process?
A: Sure. The program is called Pivot, and the website is iepadvocacytraining.com. In order to access the quiz, it's iepadvocacytraining.com/quiz. If you want more information just about the program in general, you can go to the waitlist part of the webpage, that would also just be IEPadvocacytraining.com/waitlist.
M: Awesome. For anybody who's listening, who's thinking, is Side Hustle right for me? Should I apply? What would you say, what's your biggest kind of piece of advice for anybody who's considering Side Hustle for next year?
A: It was just so clear to me, after listening to your podcast and getting the emails that I needed to apply. I knew I had so many good thoughts and I walked around with a notebook and would just take these, vigorous notes. They were all over the place.
I think if you feel like you also have really good thoughts and they're all over the place, that Side Hustle really helps you align them and know how they all fit together to create another income stream.
I feel like I'm right there. I'm so excited. We're in this launch phase, but I think that, when the cart opens, in just a couple of weeks, I'm really excited to see the next steps.
M: Yeah. What could be cool is... are you in my Facebook group? Yeah, you are. I was going to say maybe when the episode goes, you could maybe share - if you want to, because they hear you're right at launch, then they're gonna want to know how it worked out, if you don't mind sharing?
A: Sure. That's a great reminder. Yeah.
M: You'll be like maybe. Let me see how it goes.
A: Let's see how it goes. You know what though? I think sharing that piece is, even if it isn't at the numbers that I want. We've got to learn something from 'em and I already know that I'm running it and I know that I have at least two people who are signing up. I would imagine it's going to be much more than that.
M: Yeah. I cannot wait. I can't wait to see how everything goes. Annie, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. It's really important for me, transparency is one of my core values in my business.
For people who are considering the program, to hear from real students - not just me, because of course, I love it, but I want them to hear from real students, the ups and downs, the hard parts. I love that you've shared, we made these changes at home so that this could run smoother and things like that.
I think that's valuable for people to hear as they're considering making this investment and making this time commitment and moving towards adding an income stream, so thank you for being here.
A: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.
M: Awesome. Alright, I'll be sure to put all the links that you mentioned for us in the show notes, and anybody who wants to follow along with what Annie's doing, just go check out her stuff, see what she's built. She's built some cool stuff in our work together. Go ahead and head over to those links that you'll find down below.
Alright, so that was our episode with Annie and I really appreciated the way that she shared what worked for her and what was a challenge.
I liked how she talked about how she got her husband on board and that they've been talking about these things and planning for his busy season at work, her busy season in her clinic as well as she's had some employee changes and things they had to make at home in terms of shifting things around from bringing in some help and just pre-planning things and making things function a little bit differently to accommodate this side hustle because she knows that it is the goal that she wants to go after.
I love that she was candid about that, and was willing to go there and say how she moves things around. If you are somebody who's interested in IEP advocacy, all of Annie's links will be below in the show notes.
I think this is a fascinating way for us to bring on income streams and to get in with school districts and things like that, especially if you already have kids or school-aged clients in your practice, then this could be an income stream that comes to you naturally.
All of her links will be below and like I mentioned, if you are somebody who is drawn to Side Hustle and you're on the fence, go ahead and apply. The application is at marissalawtom.com/sidehustle.
Once you apply, I'll reach out. We'll have a conversation about the details of the program so you can start to get a feel for if it's a fit for you, and if it is, I cannot wait to work with you in the new year.
Alright, guys. Until next time, keep on rising.
